FCUM

I think he's the only opposition player I can remember getting a 5 minute standing ovation from the whole of Old Trafford. That would be the year before Beckham left for them. Brilliant display of clinical finishing that night. They subbed him just before the end so he could milk the applause

I should probably be able to answer that, since it's five minutes form my front door, but I haven't got a clue! Out of the 6 pubs within 10 minutes walk of my house, I drink in none of them. Well, maybe the Black Horse, once a year. Well you wouldn't would ya. The monkey is full of charvas, the ship is just.....well, it's the ship Beacon is only interested in the foodies, Hunting Lodge seems the pick of bad bunch. I don't think there is a decent boozer in the Monkseaton area.

Has the horse re-opened yet? Last I heard the previous landlord ran the place into ground and shut up shop because he couldn't get beer supplies. Minor problem in a pub I used to get in there now and again with a fellow manc who lives in Monkseaton. Never get much past the Tynemouth Lodge these days.

At this moment in time....John Coltrane, Giant Steps. Very best of Wilson Pickett just finished.

Just goes to show that their behaviour winds up all fans. There's a point well made in the Football Factory (not a book I particularly liked), which was words to the effect that one thing that unified all football fans was that they hated Tottenham. It's true. One of the finest points I've read on an internet message board. FCUM how the fuck can you compare a derby game between the two so called biggest clubs in Europe's biggest metropolitan in a Semi Final to 28,000 gates against the likes of UEFA and FA ties with Estonian and Lithuanian part timers? I'm not comparing anything, just making the point that I think attendances are on the downgrade for most clubs, particularly cup games. It's bloody hard to afford it at current prices. I kept track in my last full season watching Man Utd 04/05 and I spent in excess of £1800 that season on tickets alone including season ticket, aways, cups, Euro's etc. That was without any travel and beer expenses which were in addition. And prices have actually gone up since then! It seems to me that a lot of supporters are giving up on games outside of the premier league. I appreciate this was a 'big game' for the spuds but just think it's part of a bigger malaise. The only reason a lot of people went to some of the lesser cup games, euro qualifiers etc was to stay in the loyalty pot for the big games. A lot of people I know are now finding it cheaper in the long run to give up on these games and pay the touts prices when the need arises.

I do wonder if this is all part of a bigger 'meltdown' with football's attendances. People today can no longer afford all the games. I think even Newcastle's most ardent supporter would say some of your cup gates have been fairly poor of late (in comparison to previous). I gave up my season tickets at Old Trafford 2 years ago, in the scheme of things it didn't matter a toss to Man Utd, season tickets at Man Utd were like rocking horse shite and they regularly changed hands for in excess of £10,000 each as the club quite rightly kept the numbers artificially low (around 20k) to protect the long standing supporters in the big games. However, along came Uncle Malc and being desperate for the cash he flooded thousands more ST's onto the market last year which were basically available to anyone who was a member. I got an email last week from them asking me if I'd like to reconsider my decision and buy season tickets for next season. This suggests to me that even Man Utd are struggling to sell all their season tickets.

It will be Uncle Malc checking up all his employees have turned up for work. Or, the DSS checking up on Rio because he's been claiming unemployment benefit.

I can't remember where and when he said it but he did say (rightly) that had Shearer signed for Man Utd then he (Keane) would have got to play in a Champions League final as Man Utd would have reached plenty more than they did.

I think Steve has a fair point with Euro 96. Hosting a major competition right in the middle of the Sky boom did add to the 'feelgood' factor surrounding football. Whilst it probably didn't have great impact amongst the usual 'bloke' supporters I think it did play a major part in attracting the women and making it a more family orientated day out (unfortunately*). * Am I allowed to say that in this PC society

When somebody (probably a bertie) messed with the lights at Old Trafford

No help to you Catmag if it's a one off injury, but after going years suffering with joint pains (arthitic mainly) I've found taking Glucosamine really helps but you need to take 1500mg a day for a little while before it starts to take effect. I've also got a glucosamine gel which applies directly to the effected area and that seems to help. If you have pulled something out of sync by lifting at work there used to be a cracking bloke out at Corbridge called Melrose (he was an orthopeadic surgeon who went into private practice) but he may be retired now. I used to visit quacks several times a year to get my back manipulated back into sync but two visits to him about 8 years ago cured it completely.

What the f*ck is that all about! Sending a DVD to Keith Hackett to show him all the decisions that have gone against Johnson Gives a whole new meaning to 'bitter' that, I'm sure every club could compile a similar one showing decisions that had gone against them. TBH though, I'm more concerned with Hackett for agreeing with it and publicising it Just places refs under even more pressure to give Everton decisions

Uncalled for! Bloody youth of today, no respect mumble mumble

Sorry Steve, you are wrong with that assertion. Unfortunately I'm old enough to have been around watching football in the 1960s and it wasn't until much later in the late 60s/early 70s that fans started to travel outside of their local clubs. Certainly that was the case in the Manchester area anyway.

I wouldn't argue with that Steve, but I'm curious as to why you say till Munich. After Munich Man Utd's support tailed off considerably (well by say 10k from mid 50k's to mid 40k's) If Newcastle suddenly went behind Man Utd after Munich that suggests Newcastle's gates tapered off by a significant amount? I don't know enough about Newcastle's crowds but always thought off them getting better gates than Man Utd up until the 1970s (or maybe up until the Euro win in 68).

But you're still avoiding the question! Nobody is arguing that Munich didn't increase the popularity but the discussion is about wealth. To date, you've not produced a single argument as to how Munich significantly added to the clubs wealth. Did these sympathisers go to games, buy replica shirts, or what? I've already said that I think Man United being the dominant club in the 90s when the export boom to Asia was at it's height and being the first English team to win European cup in 68 with Bestie et al were significant factors in adding to the wealth. I'd still like to hear your take as to how Munich contributed financially. The 60's with the European Cup win and Best, Law and Charlton are a massive factor I must agree. Even my Dad had time for Man Utd then and he likes them about as much as I do Shut up Alex you cock. FCUM....you choose the '68 final win as an example of how it added to the wealth-why? (apart from whatever the token winners sum/gate receipts etc amounted to) Was the ground suddenly swamped with Jap merchandise crazed TV executives? No. That example is just as nebulous as mine on your logic, it's just it sits easier with you to cite it as its an example of you winning something rather than just becoming popular as a result of a random tragedy. The Munich distaster is and always will be the genus of the whole phenomenon of English football holding Manchester United up above all other things. The European cup win was one win ffs. Never mind that you were the first English club. Liverpool dominated Europe and never got the media arse licking/sympathy you lot did. Jesus look at the Sun's reaction to Hillsborough for an example of how other clubs get it. Ditto Newcastle-the anti toon/anthing remotely north of London with the exception of Man U is ridiculous. Obviously the Asian exports in the 90's have put extra pounds on the balance sheets and more so probably than any other individual factor in recent years, but my point is simply that the goodwill of the press/media........just simply keeping the profile of your club in the public eye constantly, serves as a means of upholding standards at your club, promoting the interests of your club, publicising your club and ultimately, generating wealth for it. If you hadnt won all those trophies in the 90's the fact is you'd still have been arse licked by SKY and treated as an exception/constantly plastered over the TV because of the home TV audiences. FACT! Not that that generates income of course. MM, The reason 1968 and the European cup had an influence on the wealth of the club is quite simple. That European cup win was the start of what could be termed 'the gloryhunter' bandwagon when buoyed by that success Man Utd first started to attract paying supporters from outside of Manchester. Obviously this did'nt happen to the same extent as the 1990s when travel was easier but it was from this success that Man Utd first acquired the 'cockney reds'. This Euro cup win saw a decent number of cockneys first start to travel up to Manchester for games by train. I was watching United at the time and it was a strange phenonema at the time to first start hearing these cockney accents at games. As it say, it wasn't massive numbers and certainly didn't include the 'home counties' element that latched on the 90s (the travel then was only easy for the cockneys within fairly easy reach of Euston). Nevertheless, I am happy to ackowledge that supporters were jumping on the bandwagon at this time. It wasn't just the European cup win per se, you had to be around at the time to appreciate it but Manchester was going through a major cultural change at the time, Bestie became known as the 5th beatle and there was a growing 'fashion scene' to rival Carnaby Street. Manchester became 'cool' at that time only for that to taper off in the mid to late 70s before gaining street cred again in the 80s from the burgeoning music scene centred around the Hacienda.

But you're still avoiding the question! Nobody is arguing that Munich didn't increase the popularity but the discussion is about wealth. To date, you've not produced a single argument as to how Munich significantly added to the clubs wealth. Did these sympathisers go to games, buy replica shirts, or what? I've already said that I think Man United being the dominant club in the 90s when the export boom to Asia was at it's height and being the first English team to win European cup in 68 with Bestie et al were significant factors in adding to the wealth. I'd still like to hear your take as to how Munich contributed financially.

PMSL As usual you haven't even given an argument for your statement Let me refresh your memory, the discussion between FOP and I centred around if Man Utd's wealth was generated by Munich. My counter argument is that in that era over 90% of a clubs revenue was generated through the turnstiles. In the 5 years after Munich Man Utd's total attendances were LESS than the 5 years that preceded it. On that basis I don't think Munich made a telling contribution to the wealth of the club. Now enough of your usual bullshit & bluster. Let's hear your facts that prove otherwise.

I don't think there is any contradiction in that, Isegrim. Maybe I'm not explaining myself very well. Bigger clubs don't often sign players from lower league clubs these days. At one time promising young players would happlily sign for Burnley et al, happy in the knowledge that if they did well, a bigger club would move in for them. Nowadays, as the bigger clubs no longer seem to want to take a punt on players from lower leagues, the promising young players only want to sign for the bigger clubs and then will hope to get farmed out on loan to a smaller club to prove themselves. The end result is the smaller clubs are no longer developing their own talent for their own profit but are merely nurturing the talent the bigger clubs already possess. We can argue as to whether the transfer window has a part to play in why the bigger clubs no longer choose to take a punt on lower league players, but personally I think it does.

I'm fine Mrs, hows you and yer cats? Still in gods own county?

NSFW http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=...alism+in+Canada

Linky Ouch

Does the transfer window really hinder the sale of youngsters? If at all it is only delaying it by a couple of months while the old club might be happy to retain his service for this time. The same goes for your second point. I really don't see the cases where a player was hindered in choosing a club as spring board just because of the transfer window. As for the purpose of the window. One of it was to preserve the balance of competitions just as why already in England transfers were prevented in the decisive stages of the season. This has been extended, but I really don't think that it has such a drastic influence on football as it is implied when people start moaning about it. In this country, Isegrim, I genuinely think it does hinder the sale of promising players from the lower leagues. Most of the transfer activity takes place in the summer when clubs by and large have fully fit squads and tend only to buy proven players they see as improving the first team. Supporters raise their expectations in these windows and are just looking for the big name signings. I reckon if it were allowed, Newcastle might have taken a punt with a lower league defender in the last month or two and by and large the supporters would have accepted it given the circumstances, and given them a chance. If Newcastle were to announce they are doing that in the summer when everybody wants the big signings it will be greeted with derision.

Most (OK not all) smaller clubs want and need to sell their promising players though. I'd also argue it's counter productive and stops smaller clubs getting the talent in the first place. At one time young players would happily sign for a Burnley or Bury knowing that if they did well then they would get their chance with a bigger club. They won't take that chance now as the bigger clubs don't buy there. Nowadays they will all sign for a bigger club and get farmed out on loan. The lower league clubs are still doing a lot of the development but not making the money out of it when they develop another club's assets.

I must confess, I fail to see the benefit of this ridiculous window. What does it acheive? The way I see it, it only benefits the bigger clubs, players and agents. Players become available in this window, the whole world knows about it and the players take their pick at massively over inflated fees & wages. The smaller clubs have been crippled by it as within a short window clubs seem to spend the whole time trying to do their big deals and don't seem to want to take a chance with younger players from the lower leagues. Look at the injury crisis you have had. In years gone by you might have been tempted to try a young lower league player as a stop gap. The player gets a chance and the smaller club a few quid. I remember Barry Fry complaining on that Atkinson documentary. He had no money to pay his wages, another club wanted to buy one of his players for 60k, he wanted to sell, player wanted to go, everybody's happy but he can't do the deal which would help to pay the wages. Once upon a time you could scout a player, spot the talent before other clubs and quietly snap him up before anybody else knew about it. Get rid of the bloody thing I say