Toonpack

So where'd the money come from to make this assault on the top 4 (or top 2 according to you). I'd love to know. I can't abide Ashley personally, but I do appreciate his moolah.

Man Utd - no chance Man City - no chance Arsenal - no chance Chelsea - no chance Liverpool - as I've said used generated funds to buy new players and as the Livepool fan said will probably spend a fair bit in the summer. they are a long way ahead of us. Spurs - used transfer profits over the last 4 years to build a squad which is a lot better than us The latter two is a level I'd like to aim for and I accept your argument that there's nothing wrong with that but they are streets ahead of us - that's simple realism without millions being spent which is what I keep saying. So where does that leave us? - you keep mentioning Blackburn but I'd say its more Villa, Everton, the Mackems and "functional" teams like Stoke. That is the next tier and thinking that we can compete above that is unrealistic - again as I keep saying "accepting" that Ashley won't invest. The funny thing is if a new owner did come in and try and do the same turnover expansion as the previous regime using revenue and loans only, you're probably talking a maximum spend of £50m - do you think that would give us a better squad than Spurs or Liverpool? you've just said how Spurs and Liverpool are aiming higher than we are, now. I like how you concede inferiority to Arsenal, where exactly do you think they will go when Wenger goes and if they don't make a similar calibre appointment ? Nothing is permanent, that is a fundamental you and others appear to fail to grasp. We have one of the biggest clubs and fanbases in the country, there is simply no excuse for any owner not attempting to capitalise on it. They are aiming higher because obviously they have better owners - what I'm saying is that they have funded most of their recent squad building by either transfer profits or debt in Liverpools case which has then been written off. At the end of the day they still have lot better squads than us which is why its unrealistic to expect competition in the immediate future. Arsenal will have to be judged when the new owner shows his hand - they may have a lot of money to spend to go with a much better academy than us at the moment. If you want to predict how things will be in 5 or 10 years time then good luck - obviously we agree we should be going all out but I think its going to be difficult given the present situation. As I've said before I've never been able to figure Ashley out and to a large extent I don't think he know what he wants either. We are of course the victims of that but I don't see the point of railing against it until things become clearer. We didn't have debt by buying players NJS. Our debt was down to a leveraged buy out and the two owners putting the buying of the club on to the club itself a year after they'd 'bought' it. Player transfers showed a net profit for their last two and a half years ownership. Prior to the Yanks all profit from annual turnover (usually around 10 to 15 million) and player sales were put back in to the club. David Moores made a complete hash of selling the club, and his merchandising of it during his time was shit, but neither he nor the directors ever took a penny out of it in dividends or anything. That's how it always was before him too. I thought that's how all clubs had to work. DM invested 12 million to buy the majority of shares in '92 and sold them for 80 million 15 years later, that was the way it always worked wasn't it? The owners made a profit only when they sold their shares on? I remember the uproar when Martin Edwards made himself Chief exec so that he could draw a wage because the FA had said one board member could be paid. Our new owners paid 300 million for the club to RBS because that's who the debt of buying the club was owed to. If they hope to make money from it surely the best way is to build it up, win things, and then sell it on at a profit 6 or 7 years down the line. Be interesting to see what your lot do in the summer, whether they do what's been done before, spend what the pot generates itself, or if JH flashes some of his own money. I suspect the former.

I agree and what that also confirms is, that if SBR had been in work, he wouldn't have come when he did. I also agree with LM's "end the career in ablaze of glory at the hometown club" sentiment, but only because the vacancy, and thus that opportunity, arose when he was otherwise unengaged.

I didn't. I'm not going to keep arguing about it tbh but I think you're being completely naive if you don't think the stature at that time was the main motivator in his coming to the club. If he'd come post KK you'd have a point. I also accept if we were in the third division he wouldn't have come when he did. I suspect if he was in work, he wouldn't have come when he did either. He did come post-KK Touche

If all our debt was for the stadium and on a reducing balance basis, that'd be fine. It wasn't sadly. Reet agreement turned back on

I didn't. I'm not going to keep arguing about it tbh but I think you're being completely naive if you don't think the stature at that time was the main motivator in his coming to the club. If he'd come post KK you'd have a point. I also accept if we were in the third division he wouldn't have come when he did. I suspect if he was in work, he wouldn't have come when he did either.

Can't let that one pass, sadly. Yes football clubs run with large debts and yes NUFC is totally different kettle of fish, why, not because we're "bigger" BUT because our debt was structured/held totally different to ALL other Prem Club debt. As in what it was secured against. Our debt was 110% guaranteed by the fabric of the club. Other clubs debt is partially secured against assets but without exception is guaranteed/undwerwritten by owners. Meaning if the debts are called in, the owners lose the cash and assetts of the club remain. We did not have that.

He wanted the job because he was out of work AND it was his hometown club, stature was immaterial. When KK left they went for Robson (credit to them for that) who was at Barca at the time, I remember seeing an interview with him, he was absolutely torn (anguished even) between staying there, because he was contracted, or coming here as it was a question of "his honour over his heart", he actually used words very close to those. Of course Barca shortly thereafter repaid his "honour" by canning him. I know all that and I remember the interview in question. It was on the pitch or at the training groung of Barcelona iirc. It's absolute fucking bollocks to say the stature of the club at the time wasn't a factor in his decision to come here though. In fact I would suggest it played a major role in the reason why he was torn about whether or not to take the job when it was offered to him on the occasion you're talking about. Are you seriously suggesting he'd have considered leaving Barcelona at that time (which we both agree he did consider) were it not for the position the club was in then? Laughable to suggest it wasn't a major factor in his being initial thinking about coming here and also taking the job not long afterwards. Of course being a fan and being available were also factors but he was never interested in being Newcastle manager before the previous regime transformed our fortunes. Of course the "stature" or position of the club made the approach worth considering, post KK, but to say the same circumstance existed when he was finally appointed is rubbish. He was out of work. Was he ever even approached previous to the Hall/Shep regime ???

He wanted the job because he was out of work AND it was his hometown club, stature was immaterial. When KK left they went for Robson (credit to them for that) who was at Barca at the time, I remember seeing an interview with him, he was absolutely torn (anguished even) between staying there, because he was contracted, or coming here as it was a question of "his honour over his heart", he actually used words very close to those. Of course Barca shortly thereafter repaid his "honour" by canning him.

The owners took advantage of good timing within football and a good manager. I remember KK saying when we got promoted and he told Hall he was aiming to win the league, Hall didn't believe him as they'd never envisaged that - it was KK who drove the initial ambition. I actually agree with whoever it was who said going PLC and John Hall taking a back seat is what really ended the momentum - after that it was all money we didn't have being spent and increasing desperation which is why its Shepherd I criticise more than John Hall. Their model wouldn't work now as they never injected capital themselves - that's what I keep trying to argue is why its no good holding their ways up as relevant for the situation now - in the current times we unfortunately need Ashley's pockets as is true for almost all the clubs in the country. it doesn't matter man, they weren't "lucky" to get Bobby Robson etc, he was a good appointment and Keegan was an inspired appointment, Dalglish and Gullit despite not doing so well as hoped were at the time, top appointments, you can only beat your competitors at the time. We need owners who set these standards all the time, give credit where its due FFS. We don't need Ashleys pockets to set our aims higher than the likes of Bolton, Blackburn and attempt to compete with clubs like Spurs and Liverpool Out of work, available and he called them I seem to recall

I soooo want to reply to that. But I won't

Well that was a well thought out argument and post Spot on though. Not at all, I refer you to NJS' post above

Well that was a well thought out argument and post

He's French, it's absolutely normal behaviour, read nowt into it (or any of his future strops, which are guaranteed) never try and measure their mood to Brit standards/emotions. I've been working with them on and off for the last 12 months, never happy unless there's a drama, all the better if they can create said drama out of nowt, which for some reason makes them feel better. Strangely when there is a REAL drama they just shrug their shoulders and don't seem bothered (oh and it's always someone else's fault).

He's also significantly less likely to go to prison

Steve Harper tribute kit ??

It's not a million miles away from the best NUFC strip ever, the bukta one. I actually quite like it, it's a wee bit retro.

It'll be interesting to see how many on your shortlist actually join us, and how much the net spend actually is. Of course all fees will be undisclosed but we can have a go. Won't matter, one part of the financial disclosure for the new UEFA rules is a transfer payable table: The transfer payables table must contain the following information as a minimum (in respect of each player transfer, including loans): a) Player (identification by name or number); b.) Date of the transfer/loan agreement; c) The name of the football club that formerly held the registration; d) Transfer (or loan) fee paid and/or payable (including training compensation and solidarity contributions); e) Other direct costs of acquiring the registration paid and/or payable; f) Amount settled and payment date; g) Balance payable at 30 June in respect of each player transfer; h) Due date(s) for each unpaid element of the transfer payables; and i) Conditional amounts (contingent liabilities) not yet recognised in the balance sheet as of 30 June. Of course that may remain confidential to clubs and UEFA

Ain't that the rules these days

Yes but whats the answer? If he won't put his money in and won't borrow (even if it were possible) then calling him out for an obvious failing is pointless - that's why the realsitic among us are trying to suggest that SOME of the other facets of his owenership in the present economic and football climate aren't that stupid. Discovering cheap talent and then selling it later might be painful but if its the only way to keep the club going until a decent owner does come along then that's just the way it is. I know its the way it is !!!! but its what a lot of people wanted, thats the point man I would have preferred a more philanthropic billionaire (a less dim one at least) but I'm still firmly in the "thank fuck we got one" camp

That's just 100% lies

One, for a ridiculous sum.

The Eighties was without doubt the decade of the absolute shitest music in history closely followed by the 90's utter utter crap with little of worth.

We've had "some" (quite a big "some") already, how much more is reasonable ? You're right though, it is his toy (lock stock and barrel) and he'll do with it whatever he wants. He has spent, relatively speaking, very little on the development of his toy as this thread demonstrates. A football club is not like any other asset (or liability), if you want to get the most out of it you have to cough up and of course that is a gamble. I would like to see him demonstrate the ambition a club of with this support and potential deserves. I acknowledge he is pruning and shaping (rationalising and streamlining) and while this may improve our stability and be good for the future, I think he has been neglecting the team. It's all well and good having sound foundations but you should still make sure the roof doesn't cave in. I am idiotically hopeful my concerns will be addressed in the summer, but I will be surprised if they do. True, to a point. Yes he's spent little on new bits for his toy but he's spent a canny whack on life support (and yes I know he shouldn't have got us relegated etc etc) but the seeds of where we are were sown long ago. I also hope the concerns will be addressed in the summer. It's black and white to me, he either invests, because this summer he can without further significant dippng into his own pocket OR he claws back. If it's the latter we have to wait it out whilst he reduces the equity position to a point where it's saleable again. The summer will tell all without question IMO

Sorry, didn't see your edited bit. My figures come from the accounts (via swissramble table below) variance depends how and when timings are done for each year in Wiki v the accounts I guess.