aimaad22

Exile, or death. You don't have to denounce your religion to not follow it really. It's not that complicated.

First CT being sensible and now Gemmill having a go at being a pacifier. It really is the end of times

He's mocking all religion, he's been pretty clear on that As far as Im concerned that's his loss and his problem so Im not concerned. Each to their own and all that. The burka thing's been done in detail already, dont know if you've read everything. Its not worn by the vast majority so the only reason for you wanting to think its a symbol of muslim oppression is that you want to or thats its been fed to you. Cant help with that. No point keeping going around in circles. Seems you've now also decided that the women who do want to wear it are too ignorant to realise their own rights. Bloody hell What if following Islam is my decision? Problem is many of you people seem to think we're all coerced into it. Read your last line again and then in light of what you said about the burka. Its pretty ironic.

I dont know, look at Dubai for instance. Or even Turkey. You'll see people in burqas and in mini skirts. Nobody really cares. Of course it cant be the same everywhere. If at some place and time it does become a major security concern than I think we should realise that its possible to dress within what is allowed by Islam and not be a 'concern'. Wont argue too much with that. However then freedom of speech and the likes shoudnt be brandied about when muslims find something offensive, cant have it both ways. You assume I follow blindly because you do not understand or agree with it. I believe religion is learnt not inherited. And that if Im truly to stand before a God someday then it has to be because its what I thought was right and not just because person xyz or book abc told me to do so. Anyway, I guess this topic has been done to death on the internet already, no real point starting it here again,

We dont have to be compatible. We just dont have to murder the other party Something like Renton said, shared responsibilities and fraternity etc. Its forgotten a lot of the time though.

Homosexuality is a different debate altogether, what else are you going to grill me on now? To keep it short, it is explicitly forbidden in Islam and thus that is my position too.

So its people twisting stuff to suit their own needs then right? Which is what I was going on about from the start. I think I made it clear its not a part of my religion, doesnt matter if a selected number of people think it is. Not exactly a part of my culture either, like I said even the hijab isnt common here in the cities let alone the burqa. You've probably seen as much of it as I have. You seem to see muslims as some closely knit cult that has fixed rules for everything. There are a billion and a half of us man. Believe it or not we do have different dresses and there are other factors that impact our lifestyle/culture apart from Islam! Go to Kabul and you'll see women going to work in jeans, go north and you'll hardly see them outside their homes. Both are muslim. I already said I dont think women should have to wear the burqa, therefore I obviously dont agree with whatever it is supposed to represent. A bunch of women covering their faces is a security risk? I find that hard to grasp. You might want to have a look at foreign policy if security risk is what you're worried about. Bloody hell, how much crime have burqa clad people been responsible for so far? Your second paragraph I agree with however it seems to me when its muslims that ask for this discretion the words freedom of speech come in the way. Most areas of the subcontinent were independently ruled before the Mughal empire came, with very different cultures, languages, economies etc. Im not sure how much that applies to Britain. I've tried answering your question though.

Exactly my point. Problem is Gloomy and Renton seem to have decided that it IS a symbol of Islam when its not really, and that most muslims women are forced to wear it when they're not really.

Interesting that the guidance comes for men first: Surah 24 : 30: "Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do." Then: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons......." (24:31) And O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (33:59)

Yup. And this 'dressing modestly' has been interpreted in different ways by different cultures. Many wont even take the hijab, some will wear the burka. Yet some would have you believe all muslim women are forced into a circus like tent at gun point.

Nah thats quite alright I was pretty blunt myself. Oil is the reason yes. Which is why I keep saying greed and power overrules everything else. Always has always will. For my view of the veil see below. Firstly, you cant even say the veil is imposed by Islam. You posted the Quran verse yourself. Most muslim scholars agree the veil is not a requirement, covering the head is considered sufficient. My mother doesnt wear a burqa, my sister doesnt, in fact cant think of a single person in my family who does. They dont even take the hijab. I dont think anyone should wear a burqa, it would be inconvenient for the wearer if anything. But if anyone wants to, I dont care, let them. I cant on one hand say its ok if someone wants to dress less 'modestly' because its their right as a free human being and then lecture someone for wearing more than is necessary. Doesnt make sense to me at least. We've got far bigger problems ffs. You could again debate how much the veil has to do with religion and how much with culture, say. Its very common in Afghanistan and northern areas of Pakistan, some areas of India. But how often do you see it in Turkey, Iran, Malaysia, India, Pakistan, Malaysia etc.? Take Pakistan. Like I said burqas are common in the north. Yet when you go south they almost disappear, although even those areas are around 98% muslim. Because the culture/traditions change quite a bit once you start moving down south. Even the hijab is not that common, although that IS considered an Islamic requirement. That is why sometimes its a bit amusing to see the West fall all over themselves over the burqa, its a bit of a non issue here really. Aye stop it CT, you're unsettling me

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Came across this as well. You'll find a lot if you look https://www.zaytuna.edu/misc/an_open_letter_on_the_mayhem_in_paris

After the Bournemouth performance I just want to see us playing some football again. Would take a draw based on recent form.

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Haha. This is what is so fascinating for me. Some of the people in my country would say religious is the last thing I am. Gives you an idea of just how widely different two peoples can look at the same thing at. Meh. You've had your condemnations, if you look properly that is. Not that I think they serve any purpose. http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2015/11/14/Arab-states-denounce-Paris-attacks-as-violation-of-human-values-.html Ah. So then freedom is what you think is right or considered acceptable? Everyone else's opinions are freedom only if they conform to yours. If muslim women there are happy with their veils, its not alright because we dont like it. Therefore its oppression. Anybody thought about why so many French muslim women took to the streets to protest the ban? I mean, they'd ought to have been delighted right? The state had granted them freedom from their evil oppressive husbands. Guess the poor girls were to oppressed to know when they'd been liberated. The desperation to point everything at Islam gets a bit funny at times. I see how women in the West dressed, how much involvement in society they had, when they got the vote etc. They didnt have it all from day one did they? Was it because you were all backward Christians once? I said before, most muslim nations are young and developing. Has it crossed your mind that some of these issues are socio-economic that more or less all countries have had to face in their development? In fact when you look at some of Western history I thank the bloody heavens that we've so far not gone through many of the things they did. Aye it still doesnt justify a lot of the shite that does happen here, but like I said before thats mankind for you, never seems to learn the easy way. The likes of Saudi Arabia is another thing though. Im with you on them, I'll be the first one cheering their demise. The house of Saud is an abomination. They're a monarchy who'll do anything to preserve their power and have caused more suffering to the so called muslim world than Israel or the US ever could. Again makes you question the West's moral high ground, principles of democracy and freedom and displays those striking double standards with the support thats given to Saudia. The most tyrant, oppressive, undemocratic muslim regime on the planet and yet they're key strategic partners to the US and its allies. Says it all really.

Rather ironic coming from a country that goes on and on about liberty and freedom of this and that. Trying to understand the other culture is the first step towards respect and thus peace. Yet you wonder why we're so fucked.

For what? To make you feel warm and fluffy? Most of the moderate muslims in Europe are probably too busy dealing with shut down of mosques, banning of veils and what not. Or worrying about being stabbed to death on the way to work tomorrow. Get off Fox News and you'd see worldwide condemnation anyway, including from muslim nations. And if some people are a bit apprehensive because of the number of muslims killed in western led warfare in years gone by you ought to forgive them since you're following the same line of thought i.e. "they must all be in on it" While on the issue of condemnation how many times have you or anyone else apologized for the 200 years of savagery we were subjected to here? Its been 70 years nearly and I cant remember one proper apology!! Radicalized bastards.

Agree with this. Prime example is that of the 'satanic verses' that get mentioned so often without any real knowledge of the history or background behind them. And even if these people, the likes of ISIS, are so blindly devout in their faith that they're bent on literally interpreting every verse without context or knowledge then its a bit strange that such madly sincere followers of the holy book miss out so many of its other parts, for instance: "And the (special) servants of Allah, most gracious, are those who walk on the Earth in humility and when the ignorant address them, they say 'peace'. (Al Furqan 25:63) "Repel evil with what is better; then will he, between whom and thee was hatred, become as if he were thy friend and intimate" (Haa-Meem Al Sajda 32:34) "But forgive them and overlook (their misdeeds); for Allah loveth those who are not kind". (Al Maida 5:13) "Repel evil with that which is best; We are well acquainted with the things that they say." (Al Mominoon 23:96) "Twice will they be given their reward, for that they have persevered, that they avert evil with good." (Al Qasas, 28:54) "And when they (the special servants of Allah) hear vain talk, they turn away there from and say, 'to us our deeds, and to you, yours; peace be to you; we seek not the ignorant." (Al Qasas 28:55) "If a person kills unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land, it would be as if he slew the whole people; and if one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people." (Al Maida, 5:32) Point is, even if these people think they're fighting 'evil' with these non-discrete acts of killing for the sake of Islam, there's more than enough for anyone with an ounce of common sense to see that its completely out of line. You'd have to be insanely stupid to think this sort of thing would be acceptable. Almost as insane as carrying your passport around on the eve of the attack

Aye. Its funny. Almost everything bad happening down here is attributed to the US, the CIA or 'Western imperialism' in general. You'll get tons of people talking about it, whether its terrorism, economic issues or anything else. What I often argue is you've got to leave them alone and bloody concentrate on what our fucking rulers are doing and not doing. Anybody making that sort of argument is quickly labelled a liberal or western sympathizer. Yet when one comes on here or other social media and have similar discussions with people in the west about what their governments are doing, you'll inevitably get called a terrorist apologist or fundamentalist or something of the sort. (Speaking in general, people on this forum are a lot more objective in my experience) Dont know what to make of it. Blood Diamond was a good movie. Was watching it some days back and this debate just reminded me of one of the lines, something like: "We thought we were fighting communism, but it was just about who gets what". Always what I believed.

Thats even more sickening, how can anyone do that to the place they've grown up in?

So its not just bombing non muslims to hell then right? People will fight people man, regardless of race or religion. Its about power. Its what history has shown. And Iraq was an example, if you look at the conflicts in which the US for instance has been involved post WWII I dont think there'd be any denying that they've got the blood of millions on their hands. There have been powerful Islamic empires in the past. Their rise or fall probably did not have much to do with the fact that they were Islamic. Same goes for today. And by the way how long did it take Europe to get its act together? You nearly wiped each other out before realizing it was all a bit silly ffs. Most Islam majority countries are young having recently achieved independence. I dont think that justifies everything wrong with them, but history has shown rarely do people get their act together without learning the hard way. Which brings me back to my original point.

Yeah I know you're not defending it, which is why I said there may not be direct links and doesnt really matter even if there were. My reasoning here is general, the amount of shite happening daily no one gives a second thought to. We just get a rude awakening when it happens somewhere near us.

Agree with that though, this summed it up: [tweet] [/tweet] Fact of the matter is that the people who commit such acts are cowardly bastards not fit to be called animals. They could have been subject to the biggest injustice there ever was and there'd still be no excuse for such attacks. If such acts could fix everything they claim to be avenging, it still would not justify it. Doesnt work that way. As a believer in the afterlife I really hope I'll get to glimpse a few of them rotting in the deepest darkest corners of hell.

No, not really. Aye thats an issue as well but the vast majority of fatalities have come from attacks carried out by Taliban/Al Qaeda/other groups. Sunni shia conflict flares up every now and again, but its not a consistent issue in most places. In Pakistan anyway. Its more prominent in Iran/Iraq. Do you know there was a total of one suicide attack in Pakistani history prior to 9/11? Despite having unfriendly neighbors on either side. I think a lot of people take this view because its simple, and keeps those skeletons neatly tucked away in their closets. The whole apologist thing has been done to death as well by now, there are no kids here ffs. The Iraq war was meddling now was it? A fabricated war, two superpowers bombing the shite out of a defenseless country. Estimates ranging anywhere from 500K to a mllion dead and tens of thousands more from the fall out. But hey thats not terrorism because people in nice shiny uniforms did it. Im not even saying that attacks like the ones last night have a link with Iraq/Syria etc. They usually do but its not the point. For me its quite simply really. We cant expect to have heartless murdering villains running the show everywhere with no accountability and then not have shit like this happening. No justice, no peace. Blame religion or ethnicity or whatever else all you like.