Kitman

I found that pretty interesting

He'd be better off going to Greece for any number of reasons than pissing around in a relegation battle for Hull or Stoke. Let's face it, his England career is over either way, so he should take the increased wages and CL football, plus in an inferior league he'll look better. Not like I care where the little bastard goes, by the way, just saying. In a footballing sense he'd be much better off at Olympiakos. CL football, less wear and tear on his body, more prestige than Hull and Stoke. He's always been a bit of a home bird though.

I don't think the papers have any more idea than we do. Generally anything to do with the sale negotiations will be kept confidential anyway.

NSFW = Not Suitable For Witches?

Started off well, tailed off in the middle and the less said about the ending the better. It was tough to compose through the tears

Journeyman footballer, won't be missed

I can't think why he accused you of lacking respect!

Surprised he mentioned it to anyone. I've done that once like. I lived in a house with the living room straight off the street. I was once so pissed I opened the front door and fell onto the sofa. I woke up several hours later with the front door wide open and keys in the door. Lucky I lived on a quiet street.

To an extent I agree but that's no defence against harming other children. I challenge anybody to listen to the MB interview and not feel at least a bit disturbed. Hang on, I'm not using that as a defence a "harming children". I have already stated I felt he was innocent. Agree he's probably got more issues than the beano but that doesn't automatically make him a peado. He had enough issues to be prosecuted for child abuse. For which he was found innocent, I hasten to add. However the state must have felt there was sufficient evidence to bring a case. Add that together with the out of court settlements and the Bashir documentary and it doesn't make a rosy picture. To be fair I haven't seen the Bashir documentary but I will dig it out and have a gander. I suppose I would just like to think that any parent who genuinely believed that their child had been harmed would fight it all the way! Not all parents have the same high standards as you, sadly.

Interesting that there's no top sellers after the year 2000. I suppose a lot of people would download rather than buy these days.

To an extent I agree but that's no defence against harming other children. I challenge anybody to listen to the MB interview and not feel at least a bit disturbed. Hang on, I'm not using that as a defence a "harming children". I have already stated I felt he was innocent. Agree he's probably got more issues than the beano but that doesn't automatically make him a peado. He had enough issues to be prosecuted for child abuse. For which he was found innocent, I hasten to add. However the state must have felt there was sufficient evidence to bring a case. Add that together with the out of court settlements and the Bashir documentary and it doesn't make a rosy picture.

Could his estate sue if anyone made any more extreme claims? Can't really see the BBC saying "he got off with it but we all know he was a fiddler!" I'm not sure if you can really Libel a dead man. I'm sure he was found innocent wasn't he? Truthful and obscene is a bit harsh imo In a show trial. Did you think OJ was innocent? Come off it. The evidence against OJ was FAR more compelling. I asked someone else earlier....if your kids had been molested by someone, would you accept their money so they could go free? I don't doubt he's fucked up and should have spent less time 'playing' with kids. Whether kids were ever in danger in his care is another matter. You asked me. It's not a very compelling argument tbh, it depends on the parents. Some people put money above justice.

You mean Off The Wall? Sorry, yes Off the Wall with Quincy Jones and those bedevelling guitar counter riffs. I was banging on about Bad in the MTV context. Mind I loved Speed Demon. When he danced with that Rabbit in Moonwalker. Cool as Who would have thought it would come down to me and you to make a last stand for old Jacko. tbf there's only a couple of people saying they never liked him. Generally the guitar headed muso's. you'd have thought they'd love Give in To Me. I sense someone might have a signed photo....

there are some kids he touched quite deeply apparently

Wish I had his money. He has a massive house and grounds in Sonning, Berks iirc. Must have had a bloody good agent when he was bending his spoons.

Goody was a media invention, on the other hand Jacko invented the pop video, some legendary work. First black artist to get rotation on daytime MTV iirc. He invented the excessively expensive pop video to prop up a mediocre song maybe. What does 'rotation on daytime MTV ' mean, is that a significant achievement? And what work do you regard as legendary? Well, its been said this morning that him and Quincy Jones pulled together R & B,pop and Rock music in a way that had never been done before. I think that is pretty unarguable. Whether you liked it of course is entirely subjective. In a way he did a sort of reverse Elvis...he was (then) a black man using elements of popular music which were at the time seen as traditionally the preserve of white audiences and mixed them with what he was brought up with (R & B/Motown) to produce in the eighties two of the (and in fact the) biggest selling albums of all time. That was a huge acheivement for someone who had been up till then mostly performing in the hugely ghettoised black music industry.Motown, the home of the Jackson 5, was very successful,but mainly sold to only black kids. MTV was starting up at the time and he and his record company could see the value of huge flashy videos to promote his music to a huge new audience in what could be termed "middle America". In this, him and Quincy Jones changed the face of popular music. Excellent post. It was also a time when MTV was quite keen to keep black and 'white' music apart in the schedules. "Bad" stopped all that shit in its tracks. True. In a way he was a revolutionary artist. Pity about the way he went in his later years, but he means a lot to absoloutely millions of people who were brought up with his music. Of course he was revolutionary that is without doubt and at a time there was a lot of things holding black music back. As I said earlier an artist can only hope to release 2/3 great works in their time and Thriller and Bad were that. IMO two of the greatest pop albums ever made. He's right up there with Meatloaf and Bon Jovi imo

They better stand well back if they plan to cremate him, that's for sure.

John Lennon released some absolute gash like He did indeed. I think the difference between the two is outlined by Renton though in that you got the feeling there was no way Jackson would ever do anything decent ever again (plenty evidence to back that up as well). He died 10 years earlier than Wacko though...most people would agree that your forties on isn't really going to be peak of anyone's pop powers. Some artists buck the trend. Van Morrison, Tom Waits to name two. Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Leadbelly, BB.King, Lightnin' Hopkins, Johnny Cash and a few more all peaked very late. I don't think many of those had an international number one BEFORE they were forty, let alone after. Either way, it's not even about quality which is subjective, it's about transcending music. It might be that you don't like Michael Jackson. But he's been the most prominent pop culture icon for 30 year, whatever his output. True. His influence on pop culture is lasting, that's unarguable. And his music will endure far longer than his reputation as a child molesting jelly faced madman too imo. Well the earlier stuff anyway. Culture is created by mad men. I thought it was created by absinthe.

John Lennon released some absolute gash like He did indeed. I think the difference between the two is outlined by Renton though in that you got the feeling there was no way Jackson would ever do anything decent ever again (plenty evidence to back that up as well). He died 10 years earlier than Wacko though...most people would agree that your forties on isn't really going to be peak of anyone's pop powers. Some artists buck the trend. Van Morrison, Tom Waits to name two. Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Leadbelly, BB.King, Lightnin' Hopkins, Johnny Cash and a few more all peaked very late. I don't think many of those had an international number one BEFORE they were forty, let alone after. Either way, it's not even about quality which is subjective, it's about transcending music. It might be that you don't like Michael Jackson. But he's been the most prominent pop culture icon for 30 year, whatever his output. True. His influence on pop culture is lasting, that's unarguable. And his music will endure far longer than his reputation as a child molesting jelly faced madman too imo. Well the earlier stuff anyway. If someone molested your kids would you take money from the molester to let them off? I only mentioned about his reputation.....

John Lennon released some absolute gash like He did indeed. I think the difference between the two is outlined by Renton though in that you got the feeling there was no way Jackson would ever do anything decent ever again (plenty evidence to back that up as well). He died 10 years earlier than Wacko though...most people would agree that your forties on isn't really going to be peak of anyone's pop powers. Some artists buck the trend. Van Morrison, Tom Waits to name two. Muddy Waters, John Lee Hooker, Leadbelly, BB.King, Lightnin' Hopkins, Johnny Cash and a few more all peaked very late. I don't think many of those had an international number one BEFORE they were forty, let alone after. Either way, it's not even about quality which is subjective, it's about transcending music. It might be that you don't like Michael Jackson. But he's been the most prominent pop culture icon for 30 year, whatever his output. True. His influence on pop culture is lasting, that's unarguable. And his music will endure far longer than his reputation as a child molesting jelly faced madman too imo. Well the earlier stuff anyway.

Goody was a media invention, on the other hand Jacko invented the pop video, some legendary work. First black artist to get rotation on daytime MTV iirc. He invented the excessively expensive pop video to prop up a mediocre song maybe. What does 'rotation on daytime MTV ' mean, is that a significant achievement? And what work do you regard as legendary? Well, its been said this morning that him and Quincy Jones pulled together R & B,pop and Rock music in a way that had never been done before. I think that is pretty unarguable. Whether you liked it of course is entirely subjective. In a way he did a sort of reverse Elvis...he was (then) a black man using elements of popular music which were at the time seen as traditionally the preserve of white audiences and mixed them with what he was brought up with (R & B/Motown) to produce in the eighties two of the (and in fact the) biggest selling albums of all time. That was a huge acheivement for someone who had been up till then mostly performing in the hugely ghettoised black music industry.Motown, the home of the Jackson 5, was very successful,but mainly sold to only black kids. MTV was starting up at the time and he and his record company could see the value of huge flashy videos to promote his music to a huge new audience in what could be termed "middle America". In this, him and Quincy Jones changed the face of popular music. Maybe that's right but I don't remember music being ghetto-ised between white and black audiences when Thriller came out. Not in the UK anyway.

John Lennon released some absolute gash like He did indeed. I think the difference between the two is outlined by Renton though in that you got the feeling there was no way Jackson would ever do anything decent ever again (plenty evidence to back that up as well). He died 10 years earlier than Wacko though...most people would agree that your forties on isn't really going to be peak of anyone's pop powers. Some artists buck the trend. Van Morrison, Tom Waits to name two.

John Lennon released some absolute gash like At least in Lennon's case you can blame the decline in quality on Yoko. In Jacko's case there's no-one to blame but Bubbles

Goody was a media invention, on the other hand Jacko invented the pop video, some legendary work. First black artist to get rotation on daytime MTV iirc. He invented the excessively expensive pop video to prop up a mediocre song maybe. What does 'rotation on daytime MTV ' mean, is that a significant achievement? And what work do you regard as legendary? I thought the vid where he surrounded himself with young boys and stood in his vest in front of a wind machine shouting 'what about us?' was pretty memorable. Or do you mean legendary in a good way?

For me the quality of the music is inversely proportional to the number of high pitched 'heeeee-hee's and 'shamones'. And amount of crotch touching.