scoobos

So if you vote Labour in the next GE - then you can change your mind when they get in power?

Can't you see the irony here? You're as staunch as a brexiteer . Reasoning logically means being open to others views and beliefs as well as trying to influence your own. I'm doing a truss here now and just flouncing cos its feral and getting a bit silly.

Oh come on, its moment in time - its do you want this MP now to enact his manifesto. Once he's in an enacted it - say if it was to demolish a building - you can't vote it undone. You know what I mean man.

Now now.. I think this proves my side discussion with Rayvin perfectly tbh - and its not ridiculous. Saying that there shouldnt be a referendum because people elect governments to make these decisions is saying that a parliamentary democracy makes these high level decisions on the peoples behalf - which says its binding, given the government said they'd put it to MPs in parliament and enact it on a a vote. You can't have it both ways Is this not ambiguous ? In the end, the argument comes down to different visions for democracy in the United Kingdom. The conventional view is that ultimate political power lies with Parliament. The High Court came to its conclusion that the referendum was not legally binding guided by “basic constitutional principles of parliamentary sovereignty and representative parliamentary democracy”. In a parliamentary democracy, as barrister Rupert Myers bluntly puts it, “the people are not sovereign”.

There are always some somewhere. I mean the feelings strong at the moment on Anti Tory - but deep down I still fear that they might turn it around and win the vote , if not next election, the one after. For over 2 decades I've thought "If the British public vote tory again, I'm leaving / not coming back" - and they do..

oh god, I'm winding everyone up today! BUT - Huh? I can't reverse my vote for Lib Dems in the 90's , because it was made and that was it - I was voting for whether I wanted my Lib Dem MP in parliament and it was a moment in time thing. Isn't every vote like that?

I hate to do this as I can tell you're getting wound up and I dont want to be doing that. But did you read it , fully? The government actually told people to vote remain and that they would enact the result: the government’s leaflet to all households advocating a Remain vote told voters that it would implement the result.

Erm, the opening line - and some basic maths.. Didnt she live under a Conservative government, in the North of England? What the actual fuck

Then forget it mate, for your own mental health. No one every apologies or acknowledges mistakes in politics. Its fucked.. We'll be back in 10 years.

Ok, I hear you but this advisory referendum line is very similar to the leave campaign, in their eyes - how about full fact's take on it? Was the EU referendum “advisory”? - Full Fact

Yeah, maybe I'm putting words in your mouth - but I interpret this as saying "they have not educated themselves" Those people should not be allowed to vote, frankly. They're voting based on nothing. This isn't a game, we have a duty to educate and inform ourselves before we undertake decisions that commit the country to years of a particular outcome - a responsibility that many don't take seriously. We all have access to the same information. That reads to me as saying they havent educated themselves - thus I think internally, they are stupid. But they are educating themselves, with information you would have had access to also - but as most of it was based on what might happen - it's not 100% facts is it. I'd say that unconscious bias makes us more susceptible to believe information that re-affirms our existing beliefs , so we ignore some parts and not others. If people vote differently, because they believe non factual information - that's not a reason to deny them the vote imo - because, we ALL will in some way or another. We vote based on manifestos and future decisions - or should do , but others vote on people and not parties, which in my view we shouldn't do - but they still can. The vote has to be there for everyone , no matter what - or its not democracy. You can't just silence people in a democracy, no matter what you think of their views , that's not democracy. I hate brexit, I hate the USA "put myself first mentality" - but I can't move away from the UK now (for family reasons) so I have to respect that people vote mainly based on how it will affect their personal circumstances. The whole thing that got me into this debate is the line about "these people shouldnt be allowed to vote". If that's not borderline oppressive, I don't know what is - and I know from reading your posts you're not that kind of person.

How was the referendum not democratically executed? It was PR wasn't it? 1 person, 1 vote? There's no perfect solution to anything. But that is democracy. People getting influenced by charlatans is always going to be an issue - but 1 person 1 vote, anything over 50% wins, is pure democracy isnt it? We can't call FPTP or any of that crap here. My personal view on Brexit is it was a problem of age and perception and that ol' nostalgia problem - as people get older, they are more alienated from the world. Studies have found that people tend to idolise their youth , for many reasons - be it they were healthy then etc. For the majority of over 60's - there is a clear change in the world, with technology - society and multiculturalism - which pushed them into feeling anxious about change. It's a natural thing. I'm not even that old, but for me, the technology boom from Landline to mobile phone in the late 90's to early 00's scared the shit out of me (and I'm a techhy) because it fundamentally changed the rules of engagement for work and play. You couldn't be "out" anymore - ignore a call and people make judgements - this has escalated to two blue ticks on Whatsapp now - and its stress inducing for me. Someone younger has absolutely no awareness of that, or any anxiety. I believe that the move to an "accepting and inclusive society" is a massive attack on the values that they were indoctrinated to believe - that we are superior - heck we dehumanised most of the empire, it was the only way the public could be conditioned to accept it. It was only the 80s where attacking "wogs" gays, blacks, gollywogs etc - was commonplace in working mens club comedy nights. I know that's a weird side note, but I honestly think that immigration controls (or lack of them) is what made people vote Brexit - nothing else - and at that time , due to demonising of foreigners - whether leave ran their campaign or not - it may have gone leave anyway. Now educated people know that's all BS - but the MAJORITY of people in the UK are not educated beyond high school - that's a major problem right there - along with the fact that those that dont go onto FE dont get trades or apprenticeships either. wow I've derailed this, I'm offski!

I never said it was fair game, I was responding to the outlandish claim that "people shouldnt be allowed to vote" because they are stupid or lied to. I agree totally on the leave campaign - told outlandish lies and spread misinformation and that should be punished as a crime, but it wasn't. But we are supposed to be a democracy - and YES these decisions should never have gone to a referendum as its above the average person. But it did so EVERYONE should be entitled to vote - that's democracy. You use your own words "opinion" , it's as valid to you as the brexiteers opinion is to him. We shouldnt be denying others their opinion and putting ourselves on a pedestal. And lying in politics is by no means a new thing its decades old.

Looking forward to the 17th! Call an immediate general election to end the chaos of the current government - Petitions (parliament.uk)

Oh dont be pedantic now, we're friends remember. I'm talking about facts in politics, this is a politics thread - not that there are no facts in the world. Im not a frickin flat earther or owt.

Economics is mostly theory actually, mr smarty pants.

HAhaha , this is either some excellent deliberate sabotage , or she (or "they") have written these resignation letters for them! (or its a photoshop of course)

Apart from the shooting bit, which is a bit silly and totalitarian again - this is far more sensible than dissalowing anyone a vote and calling it democracy.

Exactly my feelings, an eye for an eye and the world goes blind. For me, the Guardian has sometimes behaved like the Mail, just on the other side of the spectrum, like how it reports BoE spent 65bn on Bonds.. Misinformation just allows the opposition to discredit you. Telling the truth is what they should be doing. "The BoE has had to earmark up to 3bn a day for 21 days, and has spent 6bn in the last 48 hours, due to this mini budget" - why isnt that damaging enough? why do they have to twist the truth to "65bn spent"? It just discredits what is a very damaging fact.

I want them to define "success" . Despite the best efforts of these fucktards, the country has seen growth every single year up to the pandemic , whilst they used austerity to follow their ideology of cutting public services. The FTSE has grown from 4434 in 2008 to 7384 in a pandemic . Thats almost doubled * FTSE 100 annual performance 1995-2021 | Statista Does success mean competing with China? China, Germany and the US are exporters and producers. We are a services economy now (thanks tories) Perpetual growth is impossible in a world with finite resources anyway. I just don't get what they are aiming for, what is their benchmark of success?

Have they ever believed in the free market and the mythical "market forces". From where I sit, they've lost that argument as soon as they start funneling tax payers money to bail out failure - market forces were supposed to put an end to that "big business will fail" - has become "sorry, they are too big to fail". This energy crisis is just another cash grab - why the fuck are we giving taxpayers money directly to energy firms that are setting high prices? At the very least means test it - but the absolute basic economic rules are that you put price where supply and demand meet , to maximise revenue . If people can't pay a high price, then the company has to reduce its margins. Help the absolutely fucked , sure - but directly and transparently .

I dont find it funny, it shouldn't be allowed on either side .. Corbyn in a chicken suit , now this. It's not on.

I meant the peddlers of lies should be punished. what alternative to democracy would you like, other than campaigners run campaigns and people vote on which one they are allied to? Nothing is factual (during election campaigns) , everything is opinion. You are allowed to believe in survival of the fittest, you are allowed to believe in collectism , it's a personal thing. But saying people cant vote because they are "stupid" is oppressive and more in line with a totalitarian regime !

Dissallowing people votes , is not democracy.

I could have sworn he was CM when Howe changed his position. fuck im getting old