Rayvin

Is that directed at my post? I said he 'voted no EU'. Not great English in truth, but yeah, he voted out.

No, you aren't pinning this on Labour. This is on the Tories. They did this. They have to get their act together. You're commenting as if you're hoping that Labour are somehow going to sweep in and stop all the shit working rights cuts and general impoverishment that the Tories are now capable of inflicting without the EU. That suggests you're worried. Labour are not going to get their act together CT, and so they aren't going to save us. You voted the Tories, you voted no EU, that's what you'll get. You don't get to scapegoat Labour by saying 'well I expected them to get their shit together so I can't be held responsible for this', which is what you're setting up for saying.

This thread is going to be a long running testament to CT being wrong isn't it Not that we don't have any others.

I do wonder what the historic opportunity they refer to is...

CT has, to be fair, made more arguments than just immigration. I don't agree with them, and his outlook is wishful thinking at best in terms of how Europe will treat us, but he's not made this about immigration.

Don't think contagion will kick in. Germany won't let it happen. They'll a) Punish us and b ) make us look stupid as we approach the EU for access to all the same stuff that we had while we were in it, but with none of the input.

Still 150 points below where it was yesterday though. I don't get your point here, we're not going to see the actual economic effects of this until much farther down the process.

From Iran: A big earthquake has shaken Europe and England has left the EU, the stars of the EU’s flag are falling down. The economic developments in the countries situated in the southern Europe and the immigration crisis show that the [European] union is collapsing and Brexit has triggered the domino effect [of this collapse]. The leaving of England from the EU is a historic opportunity for Iran and we should make the most out of this new opportunity.

Plus the SNP in Scotland is going to have massive support now. Labour, even if they managed an unlikely revival by uniting two groups that are hacking chunks out of each other up and down social media today, won't get a look in anyway. Scotland will ultimately leave the UK, rightly, and we'll have the Tories. For....ever? I'm struggling to think of a scenario that doesn't involve right wing governments in almost perpetual control.

How many of the non-UKIP voting people in the current Labour party are going to want to share viewpoints with those who've just caused this? The party can't contain both groups IMO. If there's a sudden rally back to Labour after this then great, but I'd be surprised. I suspect the leadership election will paralyse it and tear it asunder.

Labour are more or less obliterated, so I don't know what you're hoping for there.

He said he was staying?

Osborne not going anywhere. Expect him to be part of the leadership bid, I reckon. Unbelievably, I now think that wouldn't be such a bad thing given the alternatives.

The Press Gazette suggests the influence of right wing papers could have been decisive in the referendum result. The editors of the Sun, Telegraph, Express and Mail titles can reflect today that it was probably them ‘wot won it’ for the Leave campaign. This week they all declared for Leave with prominent editorials. But throughout the campaign they have made their positions clear with front-page stories which have been chosen and written to benefit the Leave side of the argument. Together these titles reach around 28m readers in print over the course of the month, according to the National Readership Survey. With just over a one million votes separating the Leave and Remain sides their influence could well have been decisive. It notes that 26 out of the last 28 Daily Express pages were positive for the Leave campaign. By contrast it says Remain received “luke-warm” support from the Guardian, Times and Mirror.

I don't regret, nor do I feel ashamed for, apologising to anyone over this - given how embarrassing it is. Otherwise take the point though, I've reigned it in since this morning. The shock has worn off anyway and I'm now just really tired from not having slept. And a newly realised advocate of Scottish independence

It's been an illuminating morning. Things are calming down a bit now of course, so hopefully things end up more stable towards the end of the day, Merkel has just made a speech which I felt was more encouraging than scary, so that's a plus.

I think those comments were misinterpreted though. The Guardian clarified them to mean that the agreement between Sturgeon and Kahn was that both Scotland and London should be present for the Brexit negotiations. Not that both were seeking independence. EDIT - although clearly Scotland are.

Congrats CT. You must be pleased.

I'd actually support him going now, but only because the party no longer looks functional. It can't get everyone under one roof anymore, I think they might be stuffed.

I'm over it for what it's worth. I've been considering the implications of moving to Scotland all morning anyway.

I'd agree with this. EDIT - with the caveat of course that we all accept this is ultimately the Tories' fault.

I'm now attempting to persuade various European colleagues and friends that they are welcome here, and that we do appreciate their contribution to society. Which I know now is apparently bollocks, but I don't feel I can just say that. There's real hurt there because they thought we were all unified as a European people, and now we've turned our backs on them. Apologising just doesn't seem enough.

I'd say so.

They aren't but if enough of us went (unlikely) then they'd be able to start moving forward. A young, educated and driven workforce with socially liberal values would be welcomed, I think.