Rayvin

Fuck me... not read anything much about WWI for a few years but you forget sometimes how utterly senseless it was.

... The man is a pillock, it's confirmed.

I read the Guardian, the Telegraph, the Mail, and the Economist. Because, like you, I believe in a balanced view. I still think we know nothing about how competent they are. In order to form an opinion we need proven track records of success. Gove certainly wasn't a success in education. May hasn't been a horrific home secretary, butshe's also made a number of question decisions regarding the police and clearly wants to erode civil rights with respect of privacy. That said, I do think she'd be a hard negotiator. I don't know if that's the same as being a good negotiator in the context of Europe though.

I see what you're saying - and I certainly think that's how the 52% will see it. Perhaps we (Remainers) should be more articulate on our views on this. I think the first few days were so jarring and, for me at least, filled with a profound sense of loss, that views weren't put across very well.

The Guardian has been pretty balanced on both Gove and May. I don't think they've said anything either way on that front, it's all been neutral so far. I didn't say they were utter pillocks by the way, I just said that given the current state of our media, and the apparent trustworthiness of politicians, we know absolutely fuck all about how capable these two are.

Gemmill was right along, clearly.

I think the reasoning for most of us is that those who voted out mostly had very valid concerns and issues that had not been addressed for many years, and that a reaction to this was understandable. However, they have not positively changed their lives with this vote - if anything they'll have made them harder. They've not really considered this though, instead choosing to ignore everyone who more or less said 'your lives will be harder if you do this' in favour of taking the opportunity to lash out at foreigners/protest the government. They are not going to get their change. They are going to lose jobs, see underinvestment in local economies, and ultimately no restoration of the 'Britain' they think they're bringing back. I can't think of any scenario here other than the same group of people becoming more disillusioned as time goes on. The real villain they should be lashing out at, but which so many foolishly voted for, is austerity.

Ah so, unsubstantiated claims then. They could both be utter pillocks for all we know.

What has May ever done to demonstrate being a good negotiator? What has Gove said to make it clear that he always believed in brexit?

This sounds like a good move anyway. Looking forward to seeing this new team line up.

How likely does anyone think renewed/improved trade deals with the Chinese are now? And in which industries? I speak Chinese and may as well to try capitalise if that's the way we're going...

That would be encouraging but would the masses go for it? For instance, if Germany is taking on and naturalising many tens of thousands of Syrians, won't the racists just complain that they'll get in as well?

That's a good encapsulation certainly of how I feel.

Sissoko to Liverpool for £12m is doing the rounds. Not bad that, although represents quite a fall from grace for him given that we were confident we'd get £20m a year ago.

Totally forgot cisse existed...

Not very clued up on this lad but obviously hope it works out. Nice to see us spending some money either way.

Don't sit on the fence Noelie, say what you feel.

I was looking at German citizenship requirements earlier for a totally non-referendum related reason...*cough*...and it looks difficult. However, I believe Germany to be an extremely well run country and expect that their policy is well thought out. Unlike anything we're doing at the moment.

The NHS needs reform but I don't think I'd swap it for anyone else's.

Can't blame him though. Best of luck to that lad, hope he isnt pardewed.

Hard to disagree with Renton on that CT, Sunderland is one of the most British born cities in the country. Largely cos no one wants to live there like, but for them, xenophobia must play a large part. In fact, maybe if they'd had more immigrants, and therefore less fear of the unknown, they would have been more likely to vote Remain.

I draw your attention to my post immediately after the referendum:

All sounds very positive for you. Of course, it could go the other way, and we could see Labour implode and UKIP steal a march. Either way, I have no long term interest in being governed by the Tories, so I'll continue with quitting the country. I bet this scenario you've just painted is going to chafe for the working class though

A number of Tories seem genuinely shaken up about this, and betrayed by Gove. Both parties in civil war by the end of the week?