Rayvin

We said this would happen. We said there would be chaos.

@ ewerk Actually this is a fair point. I voted Corbyn (and I said this in the politics thread) not because I thought he could win, but because I wanted change. I even think that, looking at it now, Corbyn most closely represents the views of those who just voted brexit, and so am doubtful that anyone more centrist would have made any difference. The problem I have now, that I didn't expect, is that my left wing hopes and dreams have been betrayed by the working class, as much as their hopes and dreams had been betrayed by new Labour. That's where Labour is now, and it looks impossible to reconcile the two. If this is my fault for voting Corbyn and wanting real change then all I can say is that I'm sorry. I don't believe that this is the case, I believe this is on the Tories in entirety, but I might well be wrong. We certainly got real change...

You and I are going to disagree on this forever. We'll never know how well Corbyn would have done if the party hadn't undermined him at every turn. Surely, even with your strong doubts about him as a leader, you can see that the blairites have made this impossible for him and in doing so, have ensured they were right. Roll on the death of Labour, I'm sick of all of them.

Wow. I'm surprised and not surprised by that. Surprised mostly because I thought Corbyn would go. It appears he is going to make it painful. I think I'll abstain in any vote on leadership, and then probably leave the party. I've been appalled for about a year now at how factions within it have conducted things, attempting to undermine Corbyn at every turn, and I have no faith in them. That said, it now seems to me that Corbyn has an impossible task ahead of him and that the damage to the party is terminal. Maybe someone else can turn things around but they'll be doing it without my support. I'm going to go to the Lib Dems since they've come out to campaign on the concept of taking us back into Europe. It'll be another wasted vote of course but mine always are.

No, it wouldn't. You're right. All the economic shit wouldn't be happening but still, you're ultimately right. Sadly.

Also, and in fairness, everything I've set out concerns the actual reasons to leave the EU from the leave side. That ignores what this was actually about, which seems to be a combination of hatred of immigrants, and protest voting the government for the generally shit living standards of so many people. People got it into their head, largely because they were told this by people like Boris Johnson and Farage, that this was about voting against the establishment, and showing the 'elites' who was boss. They have, in truth effectively managed to do this. At the expense of better futures for basically all of us. But that's a reason too I guess, even if the EU is nothing more than the context of the vote, rather than the origin.

I daresay CT will advise you that everything is presently in 'negotiation' and we all have bright futures to look forward to. He will then blame all of this on Labour a few months down the line.

I think there were some. Immigration can be considered a legitimate concern, definitely. Unfortunately it turns out that Brexit, according to those who led the Leave campaign, isn't actually going to address that. So that's now irrelevant and a wasted vote for anyone who wanted it. This was of course revealed post-vote. Spending on the EU has also been rubbished, so that went out the window as a legitimate reason. We're left with the sovereignty argument. People don't like the EU dictating how we should run things. I can see why some people feel this way, but we're actually going to have to continue doing what the EU wants as part of joining the single market again, it would seem. So in reality they're not going to get that either. I suppose they do get symbolic sovereignty. Maybe that's worth it to some. Otherwise, I've heard a lot about the EU falling to pieces and that we should be well shot of it, but this ignores the fact that in or out of the EU, if it fell to pieces, it'd take Britain with it. I'm afraid that this really was as stupid a decision as it looks.

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10101369197042185&id=223406919&set=a.10101369198638985&source=56 A current list of racism, yells for people to go back home, and other associated hatred examples from those who have voted to leave. It's depressing as fuck. "This is England, foreigners have 48 hours to fuck off. Who's a foreigner? Who's foreign?" - @ Tesco in Gloucester. There are more than 50 examples of similar things listed here and it's been about a day.

Norway has a strong economy due to its oil revenues largely, as I understand it. The Norwegian finance minister effectively counselled us to remain. We ignored him of course, because he's both a foreigner and an expert. The UK doesn't save a great deal through not contributing to the EU - especially if we adopt the single market anyway, as Gove has suggested we will, which will see us paying about 90% of what we were paying anyway. But with no say in how the thing runs. No idea about the science funding - maybe it could, but the EU will be looking to make this painful for us so I wouldn't be expecting any handouts. US-UK trade presumably won't be harmed, although if there were plans in that respect it's unlikely they would just be 'revealed'. Obama strongly cautioned us against this action though. The UK economy was 5th in the world I think, but fell below France as a result of Brexit. Now 6th. Yep, the UK probably will do ok in the international marketplace - but most of our trade is with Europe. I think I read around 50% but I'm open to fact checking. How well we will do depends on how quickly businesses can adapt. An unnecessary risk IMO, but people like CT seem to have faith. I think in terms of the economy it's not going to be a showstopper for the UK - it will make us a bit worse off, probably most felt by the working class. It will mean the break up of the union, so that's not great. This will in turn mean England returning right wing governments to the despair of people like myself. If I'm still here anyway. I think the lies, the U-turns, and the political fall out make this more than a storm in a teacup though. This is a big deal. It feels like the most significant political event that I've lived through - I mean, I'm seriously looking at leaving the country. I'm amazed that I am, but there it is. Hysteria is how Britain operates these days.

You sure this isn't some kind of neo-liberal conspiracy set up as a false flag by the establishment and associated lizard-people?

Actually reading the comments on the actual Daily Mail article - not representative of anything significant I know - but I noticed this one: It is quite incredible, before the referendum any remark made by a remain supporter was red arrowed to death, now it would appear that in actual fact nobody voted to leave. Dunno how familiar you lot are with the DM, but normally you would expect a comment like this to be red arrowed to death. It has 800 greens and less than 100 reds. People are regretting this, I would say.

http://www.unilad.co.uk/news/the-daily-mail-explains-what-brexit-means-readers-seem-shocked/ The daily mail apparently explained, post-result, what Brexit would mean. This article highlights the views of several readers and their feelings on this once the actual information was available to them.

How true will that hold when it becomes clear that what they were voting for isn't possible?

That post concerned something ewerk set out - that the law for suggesting Scottish parliament could prevent exit has the potential to not be changed by Parliament as technically, no one voted for that law to be changed. They could certainly choose to in the spirit of the vote, but they'd certainly lose Scotland. Thus it would become a question of tearing apart the union for the sake of leaving the EU. Is that worth it?

If it turns out more or less as we're all saying, will you concede that we were right and this was a colossal mistake?

It's not technically the will of the British people to change this particular law.

Why would they if most of them want to Remain?

That is now abundantly clear. This is a huge fuck up, no one is going to get what they want, and the UK is going to be sold down the river because the Tories are fucking bellends who are so afraid of losing power that they're prepared to annihilate the country.

CT, given that Leave has rolled back on immigration, spending money on hospitals, and freedom of movement, and that we'll have to pay 90% of what we were paying anyway to exist in the single market (but without any say in the rules which technically makes us less sovereign), do you still think that you made the right choice? Also, as a backdrop, the two main political parties are in absolute turmoil, the guy coming in as Prime Minister looks terrified, and we have open racism on the streets? EDIt - added to this, given the false promises from leave, and what people voted for, do you think the majority would still have voted Leave had they been told the truth? If so, what would these people have been voting for, exactly?

Well they appear to be on the brink of doing that latter one so who the fuck knows.

Of course they do, this is what Brexit was about for most of them.

How normal is this? I don't know really, do fuckheads get together to put posters like this up often?

He's right, they should. It would be in the best interests of the country. Hell would be on, of course. The skinheads would be out in force, for one thing. Don't you see what this has unleashed CT?

One of my Italian friends was told to 'fuck off foreigner' when getting off a bus in town today. This is not normal. Brexit has apparently validated racism in the eyes of those who voted for it.