Rayvin

FFS you guys are really battering my hopeful outlook. As a caveat - I think New Labour promised the defeat the Tories forever in their move to the centreground (in reference to your cynicism), but I don't think this is about party politics anymore. That whole system isn't working. I think for me this is more about Neo Liberalism and whether it can survive the current political chaos.

Fully agree with Parky on this, it's the basis of my thinking too. It may not happen, but it could. Especially in a political climate where things like Brexit are possible.

I think my hope isn't necessarily so much for Labour, although I could imagine Corbyn offering that and sticking to it out of principle actually - it's the fact that the Tories are preserving a failing status quo - the longer they preserve it, the harder it must fail... I hope. Looking at the political upheaval across the continent, I don't think it's entirely unrealistic to hope for something seismic here. I could be wrong of course, but as I've said to death in the past, given that old new Labour were no more capable of beating the Tories in a GE at present than current New Labour, and have in fact now failed twice, I consider supporting Corbyn as a measured risk. To clarify, my hope would be that Corbyn moves the discussion left, as I believe he is doing, and that this gives rise to the forces, one way or another, that bring about meaningful progressive change.

Er, ok sure - but so what? If they get thrown out and we get a party that changes the system, gives us PR, ensures that they can never come back in the way they have here - then so be it, in my book.

Only if they do what you say they will do - i.e. promise the earth and give nothing. If the move to the centre and actually deal in centreground politics, then my point is that they're just as good as New Labour. If they feign moving to the centre to win votes, it'll only increase disillusionment with them as a political force.

Also I'm 30 ffs. I'm not THAT young.

Dammit, that makes my entire struggle just sound futile.

Yep, that's how I see it. If they're starting with this, where will it end up? I don't think ewerk is far off really, tongue in cheek though it was.

This makes sense - but still, I think you can be right wing to the point of looking after your own matters, and not be right wing *enough* to vote Brexit and other similarly bizarre actions. How does Brexit help old people's pensions? I would have thought it jeopardises them.

@@Renton - Yes but the longer that goes on (and they've been doing it for ten years now) the less likely people are to vote for them again. The worst thing for the Tories in the long run, IMO, is power. If Labour doesn't come in periodically to 'destroy' the economy, they lack anyone to point the finger at - they lack someone to claim they are more credible than. They are, at some point, going to get the hell kicked out of them in a GE, and the longer they have power, the bigger that kicking is going to be. What we need, really, is for that kicking to bring about useful political change, rather than just a power swing. It's a high stakes gamble but if the Tories are chucked out by a party with truly revolutionary ideas and commitments to better representation in democracy in this country, then they've lost in the long run. And I genuinely believe that the longer they stay in power, the more disillusioned people will become, and therefore the more likely they are to vote for anything that looks like hope.

It'll apply to all companies though. We'll have to do it at our business, and I'm can't imagine it's going to make people who have lived and worked here all their working lives, who have paid into the system far more than many people who voted for this, feel particularly welcome in our country.

Aye, I think that's sinking in now across much of our generation. Their was a considerable anti old people backlash following the referendum. Honestly, the only way to have any decent standard of life appears to be to join the fuckers at the top. As for the Tories on Gloom's earlier post, I still think them occupying the centreground is better than what we had before. Aren't they effectively occupying the same space (give or take) as New Labour? The only real downside you could suggest for this is your point that they'll just revert to type after the next election, but if Labour remains where it is, they won't be able to. As such, is it not just tribalism at this point that would prefer New Labour in the same position with virtually the same policies?

CT, surely you must be able to say that this isn't quite what you had in mind? The Tories have taken this vote and are about to create and isolationist, protectionist hellhole.

I was raised Catholic dammit, if we aren't taking responsibility for every negative thing that's happening around us, we're going to hell.

Wtf... Seriously? We have good people in important roles in the company I work for, who happen to be 'foreign'. FFS this is going to be chaos isn't it...

You know, I considered rephrasing that as I wrote it and just though "nah fuck it, they're not pedantic enough to pick that up" It's like I don't know you guys at all.

No one gives a fuck, as far as I can tell. I wonder how many people over there can claim to have died trying to board a train. I bet it's not insubstantial.

I'm guessing he didn't see it coming like. But I'm kind of glad he's in the wars on this one, it's well deserved.

That show was years ahead of its time. Alternatively it just covers universal truths about Western politics. Either way it's superb.

Fucking hell, if J69 didn't immediately regret posting that site link, I'll bet he does now...

That's from a while back isn't it? Fucking bizarre though.

But fair enough on the overall thrust of the comment.

Weed can't remain illegal for much longer tbf. I genuinely think the issue there is that the old people in this country consider weed as the gateway drug to the widespread collapse of society. The balance will shift eventually.