Rayvin

Moyes dropped rodwell for today so the Iad still hasn't won a game

It wasn't an argument. I can't refute what you're saying, largely because I can't be bothered, but also because I thought this through to conclusion. Based on the debates we have on here, myself, Parky or HF would provide links from sources that come from non-MSM outlets which would support what he's saying, and you would claim that these sources aren't credible. As the MSM are frequently part of the problem, as that Pilger article sets out, it is of course very unlikely that we would find information within the 'established' sources that would support our viewpoints. That would be an attack by the MSM on itself, in this case. Occasionally we provide a source from the MSM but these seem to be ignored in my view. So the reality is, there is no way we can properly make this argument because you don't want to hear it. You'd probably say the same about me, and you might well be right, although I feel as though I've demonstrated a willingness in the past to consider different perspectives and to take them on board. All I would say to that, is that pre-Brexit, pre Corbyn, I was firmly in your camp. The developments that happened in the last couple of years caused me to have to re-evaluate how I looked at everything, as my 'logical conclusions' weren't making sense in the landscape we were living within. I'm surprised that yours still are. Although you're right about the post-factual nature of the world. The Economist had an article on this a while ago, and it does very much seem that we can claim anything is true these days, if enough people are saying it. In light of that, I read as broad a range of newspapers as possible (Guardian, Telegraph, Mail, BBC, Economist) in order to inform my views. I also take into consideration what you guys say on here, and have certainly shifted my position based on some of the arguments made. I'm not prepared to accept any source as gospel though, and also not prepared to think within 'safe' frameworks anymore. It doesn't actually matter what I think, or you think, anyway. I'll know if I was right or not within the next 15-20 years, depending on the direction that politics moves in. If I'm wrong, that's a good thing. If I'm still posting on here, I'll hold my hands up. And will probably apologise

Unless you can get the MSM providing the evidence, I don't think you're going to be able to persuade anyone. A ridiculous position to find ourselves in, but certainly the reality. Thanks for the vids though, I'll give them a look.

Fair enough, you win. The system is as it seems to be.

It seems to be a summary/editorial piece to me, with facts and evidence likely having been established elsewhere in many of his other articles. That said, I don't know for sure save to say that he has quite a large following. The question I have is, should he have evidence for all of those claims, would you believe them anyway? I doubt it. So there's not much point in arguing it is there?

Cheers, I'll give it a look.

What was that again? The name of the programme?

Fair enough I guess. Think I said 3-0 so I'm now going to hope it's 2-1 to see the fallout of the results being voided.

FYP.

That post with Pilger's analysis is really good HF, thanks.

Aye, sorry to hear this HF. As Fish says, he's lucky you're there.

Is there not time to bring it back?

As someone who can see both sides, I despair at this conversation.

You get Christian doctors, I guess.

RT is a waste of space to be honest. Most mainstream media outlets are but RT is a propaganda arm of the Russian state ffs.

Aye, we should trust randoms on the internet and those in power. You're right. Lets all just bend over!

Agreed - makes me wonder which other Brexit style horrors lie in wait though.

You have a much less optimistic outlook than I do, but I can see your point.

Which is why it's so important for the establishment to agree to the negotiated climbdown rather than to resist. It can be done calmly and with one eye on a better tomorrow. Rather than with rage and frustration. And to be clear, I'm not saying that they dismantle everything I'm saying they need to rewrite some of the rules so that the success of our civilisation is shared more equally.

I agree that this is a possible. Then again, look at the rise of the right wing in Europe. Change does appear to be upon us.

Not to commit the unholy sin of a treble post willingly, but just to add to this, the other thing that appalls me is that the 'establishment' have been quite prepared to throw everyone else under the bus on this front. Immigrants have become the focal point for the anger many people have at the failings of a system that is actually foisted on us by chasing profits and maximising wealth in the hands of those who already have it. Added in with all the divisive identity politics drivel that they give us as 'meaningful political change and progress' and serves only to distract from actual social progress, and I think it's fair to consider them to be at the root of many of society's problems. Thus it's ok for me to talk about them I'll reign it in a bit though. I've actually been trying to anyway but it's so hard to resist being pulled back

Short term that's probably true - and certainly what we appear to be seeing over here post-Brexit, but I think there's a longer game at play here if I'm honest. I fully accept I could be wrong about all of this, and we'll just settle back down into the warm embrace of the Neoliberal centreground again. Doesn't seem likely, but hey, it's possible.