Rayvin

This is why I have continued to back Corbyn. The fact is, the establishment know that these people are electable, they just don't want to surrender power.

Well, they do know actually - they've just hit the people doing the shafting square in the jaw. What they don't understand is how or why they're being shafted. Fully agree that Trump is a bizarre person to carry their message, but it doesn't look like they were going to get anyone better, given that Sanders was shot down by the DNC.

Just read that his speech headed off some of the worst of it. It was actually quite gracious, given what's gone before.

I agree - Brexit and Trump are not going to improve our lives. But they were inevitable.

Ok Maybe it's all a bit too raw at the moment. I agree that the people voting for this are the less well educated fwiw - but they're intelligent enough to know when they're being shafted, it would seem.

The electorate had a bigger enemy to slay this time out than Trump. The identity politics drivel just isn't holding water for a lot of people. The MSM isn't either. It's hard to say that these are bad things, people voting past their identities for what they rightly or wrongly consider to be a better future.

Agreed - the thing that's going to be difficult here is persuading people on the left to realign themselves against the centre. The longer they continue to think that this is happening because everyone is racist and bigoted, the longer the right will have control. The ignorance from the educated middle is actually quite surprising (not having a dig at anyone on here, I mean in comment sections on the Guardian and so on - and tbf, mostly younger people).

We did - and I still kinda think they are. Tbf Brexit changed my entire political outlook - it's clear where the problems are and this result just underlines it.

By all accounts, Clinton is the one with that track record. Chin up man, this is infinitely better than the redo in 4 years time would have been.

Good post. The DNC more or less wrote this in the stars with their selection of Clinton.

The message will get through eventually...

It just dawned on me I haven't checked the guardian yet. The wailing and nashing of teeth on there will be a sight to behold... We're in a brave new world now. Would be great if some of you guys in the centre could consider heading left now because really, the centre is fucked.

I didn't think it'd happen night I concede. Just thought it was in the post.

why? Whether now or in 4 years I thought this was inevitable remember? They're just doing what I thought they would.

This too. I did fucking say...

This in a nutshell. But seriously. I didn't expect to see this - not yet. I didn't think the establishment had fucked it this badly yet. Wow.

Well it sounds pretty clear cut to me. As much as it'd be amusing to see this go close, the papers seem quite relaxed about it. Clinton and the status quo. The fabled third term will be achieved. All will be right in the middle classes. And after all, isn't that what matters, in the end?

The Guardian is showing Trump ahead in Florida... not sure how accurate their information is or exactly how this works though. EDIT - it's by district, so is entirely meaningless at this point. False alarm for ewerk

And some possible good news, for a change - the EU has tabled a motion to consider letting British nationals remain EU citizens if desired. I'd be happy to pay tax towards that, frankly: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-citizenship-freedom-of-movement-passport-how-to-keep-parliament-live-move-abroad-a7405196.html

If there's one thing we excel at as a species, it's breaking through the glass floor of degradation. It'll be someone as bad as Trump but more articulate, IMO.

In the short term, yes. I agree. It's the long term I'm fearful for. Also the tax bit - looks to me like she's eliminating loopholes and making sure the wealthy pay the same as the middle. That's not progressive, that's the minimum standard surely. Progressive would be if she rolled out a tax hike... Have I misread it?

They're really conflicted. They think he's a brave, whistleblowing abuser of women

That's bit strikes me as definitely true. He certainly loves the attention. It's a bit of a shame really, as he could have handled himself much better than he did. Snowden for instance, has managed to avoid getting embroiled in any illegal activities other than his whistleblowing. I think I just see him as a necessary evil. And enjoy that he makes people in power uncomfortable.

The other alternative is that actually, they're all just misogynistic racists and that Neoliberalism has nothing to do with it. That's safer. I hope it's that.

Neoliberalism is the framework for turning everyone into consumers first, people second; cutting back the welfare state; maximising profits and the ultimate belief that the markets can do no wrong. She does stand for it because it's the framework that all major political parties in Western countries operate on. What does the bit about it just being a label mean, exactly? Nazism is just a label, does that mean it's not descriptive of a very real thing? Anyway my point isn't about aptitude. You and I both agree that she's a better candidate than Trump. The problem is that we have widespread populist anger at the Neoliberals. Hillary is a Neoliberal. She won't be able to have a positive impact on peoples lives unless she abandons Neoliberalism and heads back to something closer to socialism. What you have described as her policies are a move in that direction, but I sorely doubt they will be enough. That said, if you believe that they'll be enough to persuade tens of millions of disaffected Americans that the centre is right again, fair enough. If she doesn't though, we get a rerun of this in 4 years time with someone potentially more dangerous than Trump.