Rayvin
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Days Won
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Everything posted by Rayvin
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Fair enough then - and yes, people like Alex Jones are a problem for sure. They're speaking into their own echo chambers and objective analysis within these groups becomes near impossible. But this happens on the left too. Even in the centre I'd argue. People aren't exposed to a sufficient range of views any more, so we don't have debate, we just have isolated whining.
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The best explanation I've seen takes me a little out of my comfort zone in terms of discussing the current MSM Overton Window. Gloom would probably know more about it. But the gist basically is that the current Overton Window on acceptable views has shrunk to the point wherein the media are all operating in a safe, centrist space - to the exclusion of what is now a majority of people situated outside of this window. The majority simply organised around a single figurehead and outvoted the centre. Had the Overton window been large enough to give voice to these concerns, maybe trust would be higher. Thus, I think the media can be fairly homogenous through operating in a very small Overton window, and at the same time widely untrusted.
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If you mean me, I do both of those things. I trust literally no one to be honest.
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The vast majority of the coverage on those things is negative (and I'm not passing any moral judgement on that), with the exception of Neoliberalism which is only mentioned very rarely (but negatively when it is, at least). Look, I ask again - if the media are doing such a good job, why do only 42% of Americans trust them? That number has been declining for decades, incidentally. EDIT - Sorry, missed your follow up post
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Double post, sorry - connectivity issues.
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I think HF made a good point before (not sure if intended) wherein he noted that in the UK, a Trump style victory wouldn't currently be possible. We're still too used to following the tabloids (in general). Obviously here it's the right wing tabloids that influence people predominantly. Trump bypassed the media. He held mass rallies, he use TV opportunities to speak directly - people consumed Trump news from Trump, not the media. As such, he managed to win despite their efforts. And I agree, the media do control fuck all. They influence much though, albeit a diminishing amount in an age where they're struggling for both traffic, sales and attention.
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Some of them were reporting 1% then. None of them were thinking it was likely.
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Nope, don't think so? Was that just after his election? Fair enough if so, it'd at least tell me where that majority HF mentioned came from.
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Trump and Corbyn? Russia? Neoliberalism I could just start throwing all my buzz words at you now.
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Look, this is what I would say in support of that statement. The media over here is universal in condemnation of Trump, right? I mean, I assume even the Mail has been critical. So we think Trump is an absolute disaster. And yet, he still retains widespread support from those who voted him in. You wouldn't know that to listen to the media though. They're out of touch. They didn't see Brexit or Trump coming (they gave Trump a 1% chance of winning on election day). How can we trust the media's representation of how people feel any more? Why do you put so much faith in them? Too many echo chambers around these days...
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I don't think we're necessarily representative though, and I don't think you can pull those two numbers together and make an assumption as to how things might have gone if the press had sat back and said 'well let's see what he has to say first'. We know his policies poll well, and we know he wasn't associated with old New Labour and their poisonous brand. His issue was that he galvanized the whole establishment in opposition to him and that the press were clearly not happy with him. I know what you're saying mind, but the fact remains that we can't say with certainty that Corbyn couldn't have capitalised on an anti-establishment, anti-austerity narrative. What I remember from the early days of his time in power was people throwing media articles about how useless he would be around, and how his colleagues were coming out to discredit him. It was a fucking shambles. If the whole establishment had come together to oppose Brexit as effectively as it did Corbyn, we'd not be leaving Europe. But look, you made a good point before - in the UK it's not yet possible to bypass traditional media. It's coming, but it's not there yet. The Americans have already sailed through that - Trump cut them off at the knees though. Fewer people in the US trust the media than trust Trump. Something like 48% behind Trump and 42% behind the media. Is this all Trump's fault? If it isn't, whose is it?
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Also curious about this - clearly not the majority who voted for him, so who else are you talking about?
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I notice that you can't say the same about the US
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What happens when the media all take the same side on an issue?
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I don't blame them for all the world's ills, I blame them for ignoring them. But yes, the press is not always a collective entity. On some issues it is though. Corbyn was one. Trump is another fwiw. Russia seems to be as well.
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They're definitely to blame for the 'received wisdom' of his unelectability. In your world, are the press an entirely passive, non-partisan force or something?
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Personally, I think this is because Trump is correct when he labels the media as the opposition party. He's not saying that just cos he wants it to be true, he saying it because it's exactly how they're acting. Because Trump's victory wasn't over the democrats, it was over the status quo. If the democrats choose the left wing change option, it'll be interesting to see what the media does. I suspect they'll throw their lot in behind it because they can't do anything else. I suspect they'd overwhelmingly prefer the centrist option though. EDIT - if they give the Corbyn treatment to a more left wing Democratic party, then we'll know which option they'd have preferred, I guess.
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Missed this altogether but I think we can safely say that if they choose the former they will immediately become an unelectable laughing stock, a dismal opposition, and out of touch with everyone.
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There are a number of people on the Brexit side who seem convinced that we have the upper hand in negotiations for some reason, and for the life of me I just can't see how. What frustrates me more than anything here though is that both the EU and the UK governments will present the outcome as 'a great deal' by couching it in utter gibberish so that we don't really know what it means. And then there'll be a public inquiry or review 10 years down the line when those involved have either left office or died (basically, have become unaccountable), which will reveal that actually, the deal was beyond shit.
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Israel continues its merciless pounding of the defenceless.
Rayvin replied to Park Life's topic in General Chat
The Israelis didn't do it. We did it. And generally when that sort of thing happens, the invading country doesn't displace the existing populace with it's own citizens. I can't imagine any other historical example of this being done having gone any better than what we're seeing now. Moreover, this happened at the birth of the 'civilised' age. We should know better than this. -
Quite a few people on spurs boards now consider him to be the worst signing, pound for pound, that they've ever made.
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Israel continues its merciless pounding of the defenceless.
Rayvin replied to Park Life's topic in General Chat
So what? It changed hands in living memory and the expectation is that the displaced just get over it? It should have never happened. Of course, it did happen. But only the most rational of the displaced peoples will be ambivalent about that. We wouldn't meet that standard, dunno why we should expect it of them. -
Israel continues its merciless pounding of the defenceless.
Rayvin replied to Park Life's topic in General Chat
Yeah I can see that rationally but to be fair, this happened with no consideration for the Palestinian people and they will see this as an enforced occupation. If it had happened to us we'd probably not like it either. I daresay most of us would believe the state that was created in our country had no right to exist. This isn't really Israel's fault mind, but if Europe was going to give them anything, it should have given them part of Europe. Unbelievable arrogance for us to do what we did.