Rayvin

Who is the woman...?

Yeah, cynical in the extreme. Doubt he gave her a second thought once it was over.

Actually, no. Somewhat predictably, it's the incredibly rich.

True.

Genuinely don't think Corbyn will see out the year, think we're seeing death throes of his movement at the moment. Maybe if Brexit swallows up a lot of the desire to 'lash out' at the system, people will go back to choosing between two nigh on identical parties again, I guess. If it turns out that Brexit and Trump are just coincidences, at least.

Just to be clear, I don't think they'd vote for either. And I also believe Corbyn should go. My belief is that Labour should be allowed to die.

As I said, we're going to be able to see this point being 'proven'. As I said, I hope you're right. And if you ignore all wider context of what's happening both in the UK and the world in general, you probably would be. But unfortunately we can't ignore that wider context. There's no point in me repeating my views on this since you know them anyway, but the only way the centreground succeeds here is if you believe that widespread discontent is just going to go back in its box again and that people will get over it. Maybe that will be the way it goes. It'd suit me. Can't see it myself though, and so I can't see what returning to Blairism, which is culpable for bringing us to this point, is going to grant us.

...I really hope you're right. You aren't, but I hope you are.

Has it? I dunno. Everyone doing minimum wage jobs, zero hours contracts, unable to buy homes, unemployed, etc. Maybe we need a better word for it but the 'class' is still there. Everyone who voted for Brexit who isn't racist?

Well, fair enough. We're inevitably going to get the chance for this to be proven so we'll see, ultimately. Not sure why you think it'll go any differently to the last two attempts though, especially considering the dearth of talent in the party. I actually think the political landscape has been extremely predictable after the wake up call of Brexit, certainly in terms of the headline issues. While I didn't think we'd get a 'Trump' in the US now, I said repeatedly that one was in the post. Similar things will happen through Europe unless the centreground actually starts paying attention - but all evidence is that it's doubling down. Which is fine if I'm wrong about what's happening.

I never said you could do it without middle England. But where we are at the moment is that left leaning Middle England can't win without the working class.

acrossthepond definitely in with an outside chance though. The Huddersfield of the prediction league.

Actually that's fair, because I would say that Labour's entire collapse was predicated upon losing the austerity argument to the Tories. So yes, narratives count for a great deal. I suppose I should rephrase and say that I don't see how they can make any compelling narrative by treading on the toes of the Tories. I don't think there's even a compelling case to be made over Brexit now, the moment has passed - and even if they could, they'd just be alienating their core support further. Corbyn is a hiccup in the general collapse of Labour, the terminal issues have been building for years.

Enjoyed the ending to this and not much else. If we can muster a win from the Huddersfield game then we're over the line IMO. We'll have broken our two closest challengers.

Labour had that advantage in the two previous GEs and still lost.

Miliband senior is a Blairite, and if memory serves, weren't the Blairites backing the Tories on austerity? This is kind of what I mean. Centrist, overlapping policies. The Tories have already captured the centreground as Corbyn pulled Labour to the left. There's no room for Labour to position themselves there.

The Corbynite wing in Labour appear to be on the offensive at the moment to shore up support behind him. Pointless IMO, the whole thing has run its course now. While the Guardian has opposed Corbyn for the whole time he's been leader (no idea about the Mirror) I don't think singling them out now makes any sense. The Guardian has wider issues in this field anyway, it's hard to know who they're actually speaking to or for these days. Corbyn needs to be ousted, the party needs to fall apart and something new needs to be built. This won't happen though, so we'll get corbyn being ousted and then more ineffectual centrist policies that only seem to overlap with what the Tories are saying, but which are somehow better because they're coming from Labour. The Miliband model.

Infowars again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl8q3Y2JASs

Fair comment.

Nicely put.

What would you have us do, exactly? The alternative to looking at why this is happening, for me, is to pretend it isn't.

If Trump manages to dismantle the media in the next 4 years before he's thrown out on his arse at the next election, I'll be amazed. It still won't make my concerns about the media incorrect though. 1 - I don't believe the mainstream media is delivering fake news, for the most part. Fake news, in my view, is just total fabrications. I think the media hide things (and distort an individual's understanding of an event through the inclusion of unrelated issues in reports about certain events) in service of their biases and ideological standpoints. Sometimes they can't do this, because the event is too large, but normally they can. We deride the Daily Mail for this quite often - and rightly so. But I've seen the Guardian do the same thing. The Independent. The BBC. They all do it. And it's all in aid of a bias. The problem comes in that when something happens, when views come forward, that are outside of their window of acceptability (Overton Window), they are suddenly ALL doing this. Thus they can be bundled together. But when they're all doing it, and a large number of people hold the views that they aren't putting forward, they're then actively pushing those people away. They're othering them. Then you get Trump, Brexit, and general backlash. I don't have to think up a solution for this, we'll get one either way. As it stands, it looks as though MSM circulation will continue to fall, and people will get their news elsewhere. Alternatively the media could change and move away from their ideologies, but I think that's unlikely from what we're seeing. 2 - Even if they're really minor things, in your view, how are the example I posted to you 'telling it like it is'. We're going to lose because of this shit you know.

I'm not taking any offence I'm open to my mind being changed as ever, I'm just seeing nothing from the media to suggest that they aren't behaving in the way that I think they are. I want to stress that I'm not suggesting you or anyone in your office is actively working for some nefarious purpose. I just think the media has become an echo chamber for itself, and that the longer this continues, the worse this is going to get.

My concern is with the MSM for two reasons: 1 - They're alienating a large number of people who are being pushed into the arms of the very thing you're concerned about. 2 - They're advocating for a system that is, in my view, no longer fit for purpose - and in need of urgent reform. Failure to do so pushes people into the arms of the very thing you're concerned about. I do not want right wing, climate and vaccine denying nutjobs running the free world. My concern is not that he is popular, it's that we 'sensible' people who are left aghast at the recent developments are learning nothing from any of this. And that's principally because the media have been going through a period of unadulterated hysteria. Because Trump is a threat to their ideology.