Rayvin

Are you sure I didn't say that I wouldn't vote for them once they'd ousted Corbyn? Because, as I've said before, my membership is contingent on them putting forward policies I agree with. As does my vote. If they replace him and I still agree with the policies, I'll vote for them. If not, both my vote and membership go. If I've ever said that I have no intention of voting for them while Corbyn was in charge, then I either misspoke or was high or something. I don't remember it though.

With generations like yours, who needs the Tories?

I would suggest that the big concern now is that they're entirely disillusioned with politics/democracy, having seen it for the absolute farce that it is.

I'd agree if that's all there was to it (I remain a member fwiw). But if they're leaving because of Brexit or because Corbyn isn't performing in the way they wanted, surely that's acceptable? Corbyn hasn't worked out at all, but it's not like any of them would know he wouldn't going into it. Even at the second time he was voted in, the PLP had done such a shit job at winning people over across the previous year that it was totally fair to put the party's woes down to that. And I still think that got us halfway to where we are. Call them naive if you like, but I don't think they did anything wrong by rallying behind someone who they genuinely thought could offer positive change.

Heaven forbid young people become motivated to involve themselves

I'm really glad I'm not mixed up in this particular discussion.

So you're saying that it is a big deal? Cards on the table, I genuinely don't know HF made it sound like this happens a lot. Not saying that makes it better, but does it usually attract this level of coverage? If it does then fair enough.

Do we know when Gayle is likely to be back? i.e. will it be in time for Reading?

Don't I know it

Also true, but it'd be quite the statement of confidence for the EU at the same time.

Would it wipe out the SNP? I'm not sure it would, there's a lot of animosity towards Labour now.

I see, makes more sense now then. Still not a big deal though in terms of anything politically meaningful, beyond the usual 'we can't trust politicians', right?

Agree on the new party aspect. I've always felt the Lib Dems did more to split Labour's vote than anything else, so merging with them in some form might be a decent way forward if achievable.

I think we'll lose this one, purely on the basis that winning it would put all of our worries to bed, and that's just not how this club works.

Still about a third of Labour voters voted out though... I wouldn't say they've all gone for UKIP.

What is the deal with all these Russian contacts though? It's not actually a crime, apparently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k572wTlfWj8

I wonder this sometimes too - the only thing I can think is that having one allows for consistency through the club, and makes the manager more expendable. If results take a poor turn and the fans are crowing, the manager can be pushed out without destabilising the club's long term vision - a new manager can be brought in who aligns more closely with that vision than might have been secured otherwise. That's really all I can think of.

I also think that the moment things really went wrong was when Brown resigned immediately. Had he stayed on, Labour would have been able to actually resist and challenge the Tory narrative on austerity. It took months to replace him and the narrative was set and unchallenged by that point. Game already lost before Miliband even started (in defence of him, at least).

I think it's worth considering that Labour did a lot of things right while in power. And at the time, I had no complaint whatsoever (beyond Iraq) - I would still argue that Labour improved a number of vital public services and generally made things better for people. The problem is one that I don't actually really blame them for as it's only really visible with hindsight. The alienation of their core voter base, and decision to stick with Neoliberal principles when it came to austerity (which is the issue I consider they hold 'no different position from the Tories' on, at least under Miliband), is what we are now being punished for. So maybe 'blame' isn't the right word, but it tends to come up because of the need to 'blame' Corbyn. The truth is probably more as Renton has put it before. The world has changed, the negative effects of globalisation and rampant neolib (Thatcherite) policies are being felt by many more people than had previously been the case. Labour backed the wrong horse with austerity IMO, but at the end of the day this whole event may have come to pass anyway. If I blame them for anything it's losing the argument on austerity. And Gloom, you've agreed on that point before if I recall. So, they've been unlucky in how the world panned out, and they made some poor decisions. It doesn't change that they did a lot of good, but it does limit how relevant that 'good' is now.

Fitting

Howay clearly the spiritual leader of team willy waver.

It's their second string though. Doubt any of this will have much influence on anything.

Might be able to swing tomorrow depending on how the day goes.

Yep, nice to see some proper journalism.