Rayvin

Agreed. Although that's the second time Labour have been punished for the Tories putting something to the popular vote. I don't know how they do it.

I agree. I just don't see how anyone can reunite the two sides of what once constituted 'Labour'. There is a definite class divide about it, at least in terms of how it plays out in the north. And the north is where Labour should be winning by default.

I just wasn't sure if I'd missed the point he was making, sorry if it came over more harshly.

So are you saying that there is nothing Corbyn could have done? The BBC's data doesn't do 'class' unfortunately, but it does demonstrate that older and less well educated people were the ones who swung it. That obviously will include Tory voters, but equally could apply to the working class. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034

You're gonna have to expand there - I didn't say anything about their geographical location. Are you saying that the people in the south who voted for it in large numbers were all middle class?

Fair point actually - makes Brighton look like the more under threat team there.

Happy Birthday!

Also, whether he could have turned it or not, it still would have broken Labour. The working class would have felt betrayed, and they would have left the party in droves. As was already happening with 4million of them voting UKIP when Miliband was running it.

Totally disagree with you guys on that. Brexit was in the post either way. It was the backlash against the Tories that Labour should have been under Miliband. It was the working class who delivered Brexit. Why were they so disaffected?

Well we're seeing a resurgence of nationalism in England now too, so surely your point works there? How would Labour under anyone stop that? And I agree that Corbyn can't achieve anything now btw. I just disagree that Labour were headed anywhere else than oblivion even before he happened. Brexit has killed them as much as Corbyn. It's fractured the broad tent or whatever it was called. Remainers and Brexiters can't live under the same roof, and with Labour before, they had to.

After 5 years of Tory austerity, Labour stood up and decided they could just wave it through. Given that it failed as a policy, and disproportionately affected the most vulnerable (who Labour claim to speak for), how can we consider that Miliband's Labour was anything other than done? What about Labour's collapse in Scotland? That's not on Corbyn and it's cost them about 40 seats. They're unlikely to get those seats back any time soon either. Labour retreated under Miliband, allowed the Tories to set the narrative, and were unfortunate enough to do so in a pivotal moment in British history. Miliband's retreat was what allowed Corbyn to happen. They were weak, have continued to be weak under Corbyn, and are now irrelevant.

Absolutely true. Not arguing that. Tempted to argue that the only people who do, write for newspapers...

They probably can't do worse, agreed. But whatever they do get, I just can't see making any difference. Before Corbyn, I'd given up on them. I voted for Miliband's Labour but felt thoroughly disaffected doing so. That sentiment is what propelled Corbyn forward in the first place IMO. And it's still there. I guess the positive from all this is that UKIP failed, again. Is that it for them now? Probably not but it looks like they're not going to be the force CT thought after all.

It's one of those rare times when no one paying any attention to the experience and knowledge of Newcastle fans about their own club and players paid off. If anyone on the Spurs scouting team had read this forum before signing him, he'd have gone for about £5m.

You just know at least one of those four will still be here and getting games next year

I still think he'll be gone by the end of this year. Quite why you guys think someone else coming in is going to suddenly turn Labour's fortunes around is beyond me though. The rot was set in place way before Corbyn.

I see willy waving has gone mainstream. Kind of a weird tribute to CT I guess.

Aye as long as we get over the line one way or another, who cares how pretty it is. Have to say mind, our biggest issue is that we do like kinda turgid and lacking in bite sometimes. But that doesn't automatically mean any of the teams we're about to go up against will be better. We should be able to handle any of them.

Dreaded vote of confidence. I'd missed that actually, that always seems to signal the end. And aye, maybe they wouldn't have gone down after all but their current trajectory is appalling. Bottom of the form table iirc. I wonder how long it'll be before RTG starts talking about getting him to replace Moyes.

Wow... I mean, he was going to relegate them. But still. Harsh.

If he's come back and injured the same part of his leg, then we should really admit that he was brought back too soon.

The poll.

Blair would have been far better at capitalising on all this, no doubt.

UKIP have gone out of their way to make it easy for him as well.

Still fairly relaxed tbh. If we go up, we'll get enough quality to survive. We'll consolidate and rebuild to try for the year after. Maybe.