Rayvin

I actually, on this occasion, meant that earnestly. It does look like a dig though, appreciated

I find Kahn unsettling. He talks about London as if it's entirely separate from the rest of the country, and he strikes me as entirely self interested. He'd be ideal for the centrists though.

It's a tough one, cos that £50bn would be far better spent on the UK as far as we're concerned. I mean, it'd probably be blown on Tory vanity projects in the military but even so. I can see why we're reluctant to pay it. If you consider that there's every chance that we could pay and still not get a deal in place within 2 years, it does rather paint a convincing picture for not paying... Not to back the Tories on this one, but y'know.

It's quite hard to stick to my principles on this and not suggest that this country deserves every motherfucking thing it gets

Then they'd be finished as the party of the working class though. Brexit has totally fucked Labour, Corbyn or otherwise - it's the backlash against the centre that was a decade in the making. The only thing that I find incredible about all of this, is that the Tories have SOMEHOW managed to retain an aura of credibility. That's on Corbyn, without shadow of a doubt. The Tories should have died as hard as Labour have, they're both responsible for this.

Aye but we offered £3bn We're a long way apart.

I figured, which is why I went for self gratification in that last one

Exactly. The Mail is going to be all over them at any sign of weakness.

That would be a sad truth though, as it means that the whole model is a lie and that none of us can change anything - that we're all held captive by established forces and structures that work towards their own ends irrespective of the needs of people in general, through the use of a constant set of narratives perpetuated and reinforced by a willing media. In other words, everything I believe.

Our logic in this has been ridiculous throughout. I don't even think May is making the best of a bad hand - she should have just come out and said 'look, I'll do this, but this is what you're signing up to'. I can't quite decide if I think Cameron or May has been the bigger disaster here. Cameron still has it I think but over time, I suspect May will be the more damaging one.

I don't follow... you're saying the Tories have changed their spots over time (I think they have, at least in their current iteration - albeit it's masking the same bullshit as ever), but no other political party has, aside from when Labour moved right? I mean, prior to Blair my understanding was that it had been a long time since Labour (or anyone else) was in power at all, so I'm not sure that this argument says a lot about how viable a strategy it is. This conversation is making me wonder if what we're talking about as 'change' is a combination of specific contextual factors, and how well a political party can build a narrative around them. So for instance, we have widespread disillusionment with life, work, established voices, etc at the moment. The right successfully pointed the finger at the establishment (which it characterised as being part of the left, in which it was mostly lying) and immigrants. Thus you get Brexit and Trump. The Tories claimed Labour were too socially minded and financially incompetent in the wake of a financial crisis, so they won that battle. These are just narratives though, and neither actually addressed any of the issues at play. The Tories didn't change their core ideologies, and Trump hasn't changed his 'preserve the rich' viewpoint. So maybe the reality is that political parties move very little in their policies, and just strive to build narratives around things that happen in the wider world for opportunistic effect. If that's the case, the centreground in Labour at the moment stands no more chance than the left, as they have absolutely no helpful narrative. They maybe could build one around Brexit, but it would have to be one that flat out opposes it to be picked up by the general populace, and that would mean effectively casting aside the working class - thus undermining the whole point of the party. As such, I suspect they'll have to more or less do what Corbyn is doing - and I just don't see why it would be a 'game changer'. Doubtless they'd do it more effectively, but I fail to see where the victory comes from.

I think you're spot on, highly likely that we're going to Brexit without a deal in place now IMO. Hard to imagine May getting a £50bn payment to the EU past the Daily Mail.

I agree - the centre is the answer, bizarrely, but not in the form it's currently taking. The centre at the moment is a patsy for established forces and the status quo. Which is why it's being eviscerated by the right.

They did - and I supported them at the time. Unfortunately, it turned out that what I supported was a failing political ideology and has no place in the world now. Actually, serious question, have the centre moved on from that? If they have, maybe they are worth a shot. I didn't think they had any new ideas whatsoever, but I can't say that I've been paying much attention to them. Presumably they wouldn't be stupid enough to think that the same failed views that lost them the previous two elections are still the things to stick with? That'd be fucking crazy. EDIT - Sorry, to answer your question, the left have won fuck all. But they're useless too - they're just not the ones who are causing right wing demagogues to rise throughout the Western world, so in my view are less dangerous.

I mostly want them to get in now so that when they fail to oust the Tories because the world has changed and they've been squeezed out as their message on Neoliberalism is the thing that's harming people, I'll get to say 'I told you so' on here

Because the centrists did such a great job winning elections pre-Corbyn.

No

If the centrists think he'd be a good candidate then I hope he does run. Depressing as it is, we need to give the centrists their chance to try and fail before we can move forward.

Fucking hell... I mean, just, what? How far up their own arses are Arsenal fans EDIT - at least it's for charity.

On Trudeau: Such a hypocritical fuck.

Could be a genuine argument in a threat to the sense of 'drama' I guess.

Post-referendum polling suggests that immigration was the primary driver for 33% of those who voted. 49% wanted to restore parliamentary sovereignty. I find this both encouraging and depressing. Encouraging because these are people who we can assume aren't necessarily a bunch of racists. Depressing because it means that 49% of people who voted out, voted for something completely meaningless.

If the SJWs knew that they'd be brexiting themselves.

That is incredible