Rayvin

Possibly true but as mentioned, the Liberals are poised to take about 25 seats straight back from the Tories after last time out. So May has to be counting on taking seats off Labour. If what you say is true, that'll be challenging. I can't quite see the north voting Tory in numbers that will throw core Labour seats out, but who knows these days. Labour will lose out to UKIP if anyone, but fortunately they look totally wrong footed by this. I think we can safely rely on the SNP to take literally every seat in Scotland. EDIT - also not a case of reversing Brexit. It's about making it non-suicidal.

You think so? This is a tough one, the downsides of leaving the EU are so much more real than the usual vague promises and soundbite shit that politicians in this country normally serve up. The Remain Tories won't vote Labour but they just fucking might vote Liberal. Labour have no path to power here so they can't be that worried about Corbyn getting in - they just need to dismantle May's majority, that's all it'll take for a better outcome to be realised. I genuinely think there's a win in here if the centre left can get the narrative right, but they need to unify for it to work.

It's like the DM itself is part of this discussion. Just missing the sidebar with voyeuristic shots of half naked women, really.

No it wasn't, but the Tories would have looked incredibly foolish if soft Brexit was what they delivered to us. Nothing would have changed except we'd have lost power and influence. Now, you and I are prepared to accept that because we know the alternative is worse, and that this was all crazy. But the Tories know that this would be a) something that even the stupid people would be able to see through and b ) that there would be no one they could blame but themselves, thus destroying their 'competent governing' image. So they're going hardline because the party is more important than the country. EDIT - There absolutely is a case to be made for soft Brexit IMO. The Tories can't make it, but everyone else can and should. And they should hold up the Tories as the model of government, party politics led incompetence, while they do it.

The Greens have come out with the right approach: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/19/greens-urge-labour-and-lib-dems-to-form-electoral-pact-to-defeat-tories A progressive alliance wherein they, Labour and the Libs don't contest each other's seats. I'm sure it'll be thrown out by Labour but it fucking shouldn't be.

You're using other people as an excuse to bring her up now. Dedicated.

I think realistically the Norwegian model was a hard sell because it would actually have meant no difference whatsoever apart from that we'd have looked like fucking idiots. Hard Brexit allows us to look a little less like fucking idiots (as we're actually getting some manner of discernible difference) at the cost of making us look delusional. But either way, I suspect the Tories realised that the country had been made fools of in the referendum and that they needed to choose the least bad option in terms of how people would view them.

Aye, that makes sense about UKIP. Realistically, I don't believe that 52% of the country wanted out of Europe. I do think that 52% of the country were incredibly pissed off. UKIP have always been a protest party, Brexit was a protest movement... but the establishment own it firmly now. Just can't see the same numbers turning up for it. But the remainers will, probably to a man. Last chance to avert catastrophe.

You were ensnared by the generally superior political discussion on here I reckon

Yeah that's true, but we haven't exactly been calm and collected under pressure, and the pressure would be on if they win.

I think it should be exactly what you've set out - They've already lost the people prepared to let immigration become an issue as they've maintained their view that immigration is positive for the country as a whole throughout all of this, so they have little further to lose there. Corbyn will have some traction with the working class, those intelligent enough to actually listen to what he's saying. But that said, they may be an absolute write off, and we'll have to hope that they aren't motivated to turn out in the same numbers as they did for the referendum. Things that might be relevant: 1 - Will the working class swallow their tribalism and vote Tory? 2 - Will the north? 3 - Will UKIP be able to mount a viable campaign? They didn't seem pleased by this announcement. 4 - Can Labour, the Lib Dems and the SNP find common ground? Ideally, I would want all resources for each party to be thrown into the seats they can take off the Tories rather than each other. The Lib Dems attack on the MIddle England front and Labour try to consolidate what they can in the North and urban centres. SNP just repeat what they've managed in Scotland.

I think the Noelie threat level prediction is a nice touch actually. It's going to be unpleasant if we lose and Huds win, mind.

So you made an account back in 2007 and just remembered us, 10 years on Mackem or not, that's actually quite impressive.

If we got him involved, on stage with Corbyn, Labour would be unstoppable.

Fine, they can rebrand it. Call it the 'People's Brexit' or something. They could demonstrate that those who want Hard Brexit are rich landowners in the country who will either benefit or will be fine with it as they're rich enough to cope. Other the fuck out of the hard Brexiters.

Which is fine because actually, that's what it'll take to win it. Soft Brexit allows for the will of the people nonsense to be maintained while also ensuring that basically nothing changes - which is what we want. Surely 52% of the country didn't vote for cutting ALL ties with Europe, and if no party is going to go for a reversal, the Remainers will go for the least bad option.

I think the best we can hope for is that they have a good rethink over the next few days. That speech was all soundbites, it sounds as though it's caught them cold.

That speech is horrific. EDIT - although he's right about the austerity narrative, that is indeed why they lost last time.

Pick whichever one is most likely to win between Libs and Labour if how we leave the EU is a priority to you, vote Green if you're just sick of all of them, I'd say. I'm going to vote Labour if they're able to make clear that they're going for a inbetweeny Brexit. If they faff around and avoid saying anything of substance, I'll go Lib Dem.

Disagree, but only because I don't think Brexit was actually about Brexit. It was a pressure venting exercise and a general lashing out at the establishment IMO. I don't know if I see the same sorts of people who voted for that, coming out to support the sitting government in achieving it's aims. Entirely different proposition. They'd be backing the establishment, not attacking it.

There's plenty of people on here who believe that, it shouldn't be hard.

FFS.

Not sure about returning to its principles, but he was supposed to shake things up and move them leftwards. All of this he did, but Brexit has killed him off. Without Brexit, what would the Tories have used to reach out to people desperate for change?

You're assuming turnout is the same. It won't be, and it won't be in favour of Remain. That said, you're otherwise right - that coalition needs to exist in principle even if not in a formal sense. I would add that they can take the middle road of single market access which the vast majority of Remainers would accept, and potentially a decent number of Brexiters.