Rayvin

That time appears to have passed though. We now have a shrinking middle class, young people whose aspirations are being obliterated as soon as they set foot out of the door, a diminishing public sector, and rampant populism which has successfully co-opted the anger about this state of affairs and pointed it in the direction of something else. Young people are where the problem really is. Maybe you're able to suck up all the shit that's going down because you're already 'established' and it isn't touching you, but for people starting out at the bottom, with tuition fees now skyrocketing, social mobility at an all time low, and the requirement to live with your parents until you're into your 30s(!) I don't see how you can consider that things are looking ok. Maybe for you they are.

*rapturous applause*

I'm assuming here you're saying Labour could be electable and not proponents of the ideology that plagues our system. I agree with you. Unfortunately, until someone better than Corbyn comes along, he's all we have. As I said, I'd vote for a centrist if it meant actually fixing the fucking problem. In fact I'd prefer to vote for a centrist fixer over a left wing one.

Well put, especially the last bit.

Is it interesting? I'm not sure why that would be. My issue is with an ideology, not individual states. But yes, I am overusing the word. I could bring back 'establishment' if you want.

I'm glad you and I are back on the same page at least. I'm inclined to think that extended exposure to the Tories will continue to ensure that people will look for alternatives. If we go back to Labour and the Tories recycling power between themselves we are simply not going to win this battle. If Labour get to power by appeasing the Neolibs, we can't rely on them to start making the necessary changes. That's the lesson we learned from Blair. The cold and unfeeling strategist in me thinks we need to hold out and make people desperate so that, eventually, they have to vote away from the Neolibs if they want anything other than the Tories. Apparently that will take another 5 years. We've got that coming either way though, so I'm tempted to say we may as well dig our heels in now. Harsh as that sounds, the alternative is a slower descent into a deeper level of misery. At least as far as I see it. Could be wrong of course.

Cuba is a basket case. The others are all part of the same systemic problem because Neoliberalism has enshrined itself in global institutions as a means of bypassing national controls and accountability. I'm not calling for a sudden and rapid change or revolution in terms of the systems we use, I'm calling for a gradual departure from a system that only appears to serve those at the top, while the rest of us run around for the crumbs. I do not believe any country does this at present. If New Labour came out tomorrow, moved squarely to the centre, and said they were going to abandon Neoliberalism, I'd vote for them. They can't of course, but that's what I believe needs to happen. I'm not a communist if that's where your mind is going.

I'm voting for people who I think can offer an alternative vision. If there are no such people to vote for, there is not much I can do. Short of going in politics myself that is, but if you're going to levy that particular strand of the argument at me, why haven't you run as a compassionate centrist in order to help all the same people you're suggesting I 'hate'.

Oh ffs, it's not even as if Corbyn is an extreme left wing candidate. He has a load of policies that the vast majority of us agree on, which the vast majority of the electorate agree on, and is simply not polling well on a personal level. Seems to me like they're trying to discuss these policies as much as possible, and are being prevented at every turn. I'm sure international finance will be glad of your backing though.

That only works if you're prepared to embrace the ideology at the heart of this. If you are, then fine. But over the long haul, people's lives will continue to deteriorate as we move towards being a corporatocracy. As I do not want to see the gradual erosion of people's lives, I find it hard to stomach the idea of voting for something that will ultimately produce this.

Well, fair enough. We are clearly not going to agree on this.

He literally had to be persuaded to stay in power last summer by those around him, but ok.

Since they're the ones who are poised to vote Tory, tell me, what am I supposed to do about it? I'm voting for and have been a part of offering them the most left wing mainstream alternative they've had in years. If they reject that, what more am I supposed to do? There are two possible outcomes here IMO. I'm either totally wrong about what people need, in which case my vote shouldn't be cast because actually, I'm probably doing more harm than good - or people will continue to reject what in their best interests until such a time as they wake the fuck up. They're actually more likely to do that under the Tories than they are under centre-left Labour - and as long as there's a proper left wing option there, I'm satisfied that they can make a choice. EDIT - In response to your edit; I'm not smug about this - I'm frustrated. I'm doubting myself a fair bit on the grounds that I seem to be arguing in here with a lot of people whose opinions I respect. But I'm not feeling smug.

That is not all that is being said. Renton has attributed half of the blame for the current state of British politics to Corbyn. Which is absolutely absurd, and ignores all of the forces that got him to where he is. In fact, you article posted over the page that explains how he came to power actually reinforces this. Corbyn was almost an unwitting participant in what was, and I can't say this clearly enough, a rejection of the Neoliberal PLP. I'm also under fire for indicating that I won't vote for the Neolibs. Would you? But look, I've already said previously that I concur he should stand down. So, we're all on the same page on that front if it helps.

What do I get out of this, exactly? If I was thinking about my own interests, I'd be voting Tory.

I'm not a member of momentum. I'm not even 100% clear on what they stand for. I am, however, not an idiot. And it's plain as fucking day that neoliberalism is getting us a universal shafting from the hard right at the moment, and no amount of delusional blaming of Corbyn is going to change that. And all for what? So the super rich can keep their cabal at the top going, where big businesses are saved at the expense of the taxpayer (free market my arse) and wealth and income inequality soars. No fucking thank you.

It's someone who isn't Neoliberal or to hell with everyone. Largely because the Neolibs are just perpetuating the hell. Not that they're harming me personally, to be quite honest. This isn't actually a massive departure for me - I only just managed to vote Labour last time due to be thoroughly disillusioned with the entire process, and I doubt I'd have done so this time if they'd continued with more of the same (though who knows with Brexit I guess). I'm not responsible for the people who vote Tory at the end of the day but I am responsible for who I do vote for. This is interesting in a sense but it's also what I already knew. This was never about Corbyn and everything to do with the sentiments that brought him to power. And it really could have become something more had a similar anti-establishment movement not taken place in the form of Brexit. A shame.

After all the shit I've given New Labour, Neoliberalism, and the fundamental failings of our system, what kind of monumental hypocritical arsehole would I be if I then voted for the same people? 'Grow up' ffs. No.

Corbyn stood with no prospect of being elected, as he saw it. Sounds as though it was simply something those on the left did every time just to make sure the others paid lipservice to left wing idealism. I doubt he wanted this any more than you wanted him. However, it's hard to deny the fact that a lot of people backed him and that if he had not seen this through, he would have looked an absolute charlatan. He was voted in because people were sick of the failures of the alternative. Blaming him for the failures of those who came before, is pointless. All that is going to happen following this election, is that Labour will lose - Corbyn will stand down, or at least very probably will - and members will desert Labour in their droves. You'll get your party back, they will go back to being able to challenge the Tories with their own, slightly nuanced version of Neoliberalism, and nothing will change. It'll be like it was all a bad dream and nothing more. In the meantime, once that happens, I probably just won't vote. Because it looks absolutely pointless for someone with my views.

I don't agree for all the previous reasons I've given over the last two years. You're basically suggesting that Corbyn should have stood down immediately after being elected, as that would be the only way to avert Brexit (which I've given evidence previously to suggest, would have made no difference to the outcome unless you think Labour voters are on par with the Greens in terms of the proportion who could be persuaded to vote Remain). How on earth would that farce have helped the Labour party? Following the leadership election you've got more of a case, but at the end of the day the PLP fucked that up by jumping the gun after months of bitching about his election. I think I read somewhere that the Tories know from experience that you have to wait two years to oust a leader. Moreover, Corbyn was returned with an even bigger majority. So who does Labour belong to, if not it's members? You can absolutely blame the people who voted Corbyn, such as myself and most of the Labour supporting people I know. Still think you'd be wrong, but at least the argument would make logical sense - asking Corbyn to disavow the principles he stood for in an election that he won by a landslide does not make sense. However, these people voted for him because of how let down they were by the previous Labour regime. And since Miliband introduced the mechanism by which Corbyn came to power (as well as overseeing the party that refused to challenge the rhetoric on austerity, and in so doing abandoned it's working class base), ultimately, I think you'd have to say that he's responsible. But that's just for the Labour Party. Ultimately, the people responsible for the Tories winning this election, and Brexit itself, are the people who voted for those things. I have no blood on my hands.

It was a fantastic film actually Better than the first one which was decent.

I suppose. UKIP have a lot to fucking answer for.

Why though, given that Labour have committed to pushing Brexit through also? Surely UKIP have more in common with Labour in terms of their voter base, than the Tories?

Oh really? I missed that. So they're literally allowing their party to fall apart on the sacrificial altar of the Tories? Cowards.

Point of reflection - if UKIP are dying on the arses (as seems to be the case), does that help Labour? Are working class people in the North seriously about to vote Tory?