Rayvin

Because I harp on about it so much, it's now cemented in your head though. It was previously an almost nameless force that seemed to govern everything in our society. But look, if it helps I'll start calling it the rationale behind the privatisation of state assets, maximization of profits, and conversion of human beings into consumers in a Darwinian style survival of the most competitive (save for those at the top of the system who survive either way). I do want to make a point that might make me sound less 'delusional' though - if we could get away with sustained centre left governments without any swing to right wing populism as a consequence, I'd take it.

This is true, but Labour's groups are now separate. Half are Neolibs like Renton and the other half are those left behind by the same people. That half are going for the far right. I mean look, I don't think all this stuff cos I'm an idealist. If we could go back to Blair winning and things being great for the middle classes i'd be all for it. But the reality is that our complacency has wrought absolute mayhem. Going back to what brought us to that just can't be the answer.

Agreed on the several hundred thousand, but when you factor in the now Tory working class, I think they've lost millions. People like me don't matter, I'm well aware of this But they don't understand the extent to which they've lost the working class, and that's the worry. They've learned absolutely fuck all from what brought them to this point.

Under normal circustances I'd say it made a lot of sense. Do you think a competent Labour government could reverse what has happened in the last 9 years? If it can, then actually yeah, all of the above is the solution. If it cant, then what the author of CT's post sets out isn't going to help us. They're losing to anti-establishment populism, not the Tories. The minute I see the centreground Labour politicians acknowledge this, is the minute i have some hope about their chances. As it stands, they've missed the entire point of everything that happened. To be frank, I genuinely feel that they've completely lost touch as a party. The only way they're going to evict the left wing behind Corbyn is by forcing them off the ballot. If they do that, they'll be openly opposed to the membership. They'll lose tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands. These members won't vote for them again and Blair and Miliband lost the working class already. The broad church is dead and Labour has died with it IMO.

Fun88 8 is usually pronounced 'ba' in Chinese, but in the context I think they'll say it 'bai'. So we're being sponsored by Funbaibai.

I find that unsettling too. Parky is turning to the dark side here.

I think you've got the right of it. You're certainly in agreement with me although it's not a popular standpoint. The financial crisis was a global crisis, the impact of which has been felt globally, and we're seeing a global backlash against globalism. But apparently this doesn't apply in the UK. In the UK everything was fine until Corbyn came along and fucked it up. I'm struggling to get my head around how the same people who backed the previous Labour regimes in the financial crisis, noting that Labour were the victims of a global issue, have failed to extend their logic to the current day. Because Neoliberalism is a global force, the backlash against it has to be as well. This is far bigger than Corbyn, and if the old Labour party were in control, they'd still be being hammered. It's not like the Liberals are suddenly rampant is it? They were just as shit in the local elections as Labour. Fucks sake, we're going to lose another generation if the centre left comes out of this thinking the problem was Corbyn. If anything, that's the single biggest problem his legacy will leave.

Apparently about to be quite a few. Be interesting to see after the election.

Not sure that fixes it. Aspiration being part of the human experience, what would we all do with ourselves?

That time appears to have passed though. We now have a shrinking middle class, young people whose aspirations are being obliterated as soon as they set foot out of the door, a diminishing public sector, and rampant populism which has successfully co-opted the anger about this state of affairs and pointed it in the direction of something else. Young people are where the problem really is. Maybe you're able to suck up all the shit that's going down because you're already 'established' and it isn't touching you, but for people starting out at the bottom, with tuition fees now skyrocketing, social mobility at an all time low, and the requirement to live with your parents until you're into your 30s(!) I don't see how you can consider that things are looking ok. Maybe for you they are.

*rapturous applause*

I'm assuming here you're saying Labour could be electable and not proponents of the ideology that plagues our system. I agree with you. Unfortunately, until someone better than Corbyn comes along, he's all we have. As I said, I'd vote for a centrist if it meant actually fixing the fucking problem. In fact I'd prefer to vote for a centrist fixer over a left wing one.

Well put, especially the last bit.

Is it interesting? I'm not sure why that would be. My issue is with an ideology, not individual states. But yes, I am overusing the word. I could bring back 'establishment' if you want.

I'm glad you and I are back on the same page at least. I'm inclined to think that extended exposure to the Tories will continue to ensure that people will look for alternatives. If we go back to Labour and the Tories recycling power between themselves we are simply not going to win this battle. If Labour get to power by appeasing the Neolibs, we can't rely on them to start making the necessary changes. That's the lesson we learned from Blair. The cold and unfeeling strategist in me thinks we need to hold out and make people desperate so that, eventually, they have to vote away from the Neolibs if they want anything other than the Tories. Apparently that will take another 5 years. We've got that coming either way though, so I'm tempted to say we may as well dig our heels in now. Harsh as that sounds, the alternative is a slower descent into a deeper level of misery. At least as far as I see it. Could be wrong of course.

Cuba is a basket case. The others are all part of the same systemic problem because Neoliberalism has enshrined itself in global institutions as a means of bypassing national controls and accountability. I'm not calling for a sudden and rapid change or revolution in terms of the systems we use, I'm calling for a gradual departure from a system that only appears to serve those at the top, while the rest of us run around for the crumbs. I do not believe any country does this at present. If New Labour came out tomorrow, moved squarely to the centre, and said they were going to abandon Neoliberalism, I'd vote for them. They can't of course, but that's what I believe needs to happen. I'm not a communist if that's where your mind is going.

I'm voting for people who I think can offer an alternative vision. If there are no such people to vote for, there is not much I can do. Short of going in politics myself that is, but if you're going to levy that particular strand of the argument at me, why haven't you run as a compassionate centrist in order to help all the same people you're suggesting I 'hate'.

Oh ffs, it's not even as if Corbyn is an extreme left wing candidate. He has a load of policies that the vast majority of us agree on, which the vast majority of the electorate agree on, and is simply not polling well on a personal level. Seems to me like they're trying to discuss these policies as much as possible, and are being prevented at every turn. I'm sure international finance will be glad of your backing though.

That only works if you're prepared to embrace the ideology at the heart of this. If you are, then fine. But over the long haul, people's lives will continue to deteriorate as we move towards being a corporatocracy. As I do not want to see the gradual erosion of people's lives, I find it hard to stomach the idea of voting for something that will ultimately produce this.

Well, fair enough. We are clearly not going to agree on this.

He literally had to be persuaded to stay in power last summer by those around him, but ok.

Since they're the ones who are poised to vote Tory, tell me, what am I supposed to do about it? I'm voting for and have been a part of offering them the most left wing mainstream alternative they've had in years. If they reject that, what more am I supposed to do? There are two possible outcomes here IMO. I'm either totally wrong about what people need, in which case my vote shouldn't be cast because actually, I'm probably doing more harm than good - or people will continue to reject what in their best interests until such a time as they wake the fuck up. They're actually more likely to do that under the Tories than they are under centre-left Labour - and as long as there's a proper left wing option there, I'm satisfied that they can make a choice. EDIT - In response to your edit; I'm not smug about this - I'm frustrated. I'm doubting myself a fair bit on the grounds that I seem to be arguing in here with a lot of people whose opinions I respect. But I'm not feeling smug.

That is not all that is being said. Renton has attributed half of the blame for the current state of British politics to Corbyn. Which is absolutely absurd, and ignores all of the forces that got him to where he is. In fact, you article posted over the page that explains how he came to power actually reinforces this. Corbyn was almost an unwitting participant in what was, and I can't say this clearly enough, a rejection of the Neoliberal PLP. I'm also under fire for indicating that I won't vote for the Neolibs. Would you? But look, I've already said previously that I concur he should stand down. So, we're all on the same page on that front if it helps.

What do I get out of this, exactly? If I was thinking about my own interests, I'd be voting Tory.

I'm not a member of momentum. I'm not even 100% clear on what they stand for. I am, however, not an idiot. And it's plain as fucking day that neoliberalism is getting us a universal shafting from the hard right at the moment, and no amount of delusional blaming of Corbyn is going to change that. And all for what? So the super rich can keep their cabal at the top going, where big businesses are saved at the expense of the taxpayer (free market my arse) and wealth and income inequality soars. No fucking thank you.