Rayvin

I think if you include online readership, the Sun is eclipsed by the Mail. Although that might be on an international scale, rather than the UK. It's supposedly the most viewed news site in the world.

Just guessing, but I think it's because Gloom considers the Times to somehow be free from the influence of its owner. Not sure he factored in Sky though.

Both responsible, along with Rothermere.

Doubt it. I mean, maybe you're right, but I genuinely don't think there were that many votes riding on nuclear deterrents and the like. I suspect the IRA, terrorism, anti-monarchy stuff has probably had a bigger impact, and by the time he was leader there was nothing he could do about those.

I think Murdoch is most culpable, personally. I mean, it depends on whether or not you consider people like Murdoch and their stranglehold on the media to be 'part of the system as it works' or as 'something which should be challenged frequently and repeatedly'. That's probably where our difference of opinion lies.

Not a success, just not a defeat that suggests we should deviate from the overall course. It would be a fairly firm endorsement that the "far" left has something that many people consider feasible. If he was hammered, it would be really hard to argue that. If we get a Miliband style defeat, then as you say, we need to ditch Corbyn - but replace him with someone more palatable who isn't a centrist.

As an aside, and not because I think or even hold any hope that this might happen, but imagine if CT was right about this He could forever more claim to be the barometer for the nation's mood.

Yep, they've been notable by their absence. I think the party is shafted if it fails here. I can't speak for all members obviously, but I'm not about to vote for a centrist to come back in. Where does that leave us? Fractured and split.

Well the notion that pulling Labour to the left forced people to make a choice was always my contention, but it's not popular logic around here. And in fairness, doesn't appear to be about to work.

Everything seems to be pointing to the youth vote. The Guardian seems to think that if there's a turnout in excess of 66%, Labour will actually win the thing. Lower than 62% and they're fucked. Historically, it's been at 44%. So yeah, it's not looking likely. Although that said, the longest queues for polling booths are coming from universities...

Dianne Abbott it is then! Must be her turn now?

Not sure it has mind... Look at where he was in the polls before all that shit came up, and before he started getting out and making himself seen. He's won people back to him -despite- the views he has. If anything, I'd say it's his history that has underpinned his inability to capitalise to the full extent he could have, rather than his statements on issues like that.

Who do you want to come in and take over?

Northernsoul has just countered his colleagues' fallacies about Labour with factual information concerning the Tories. Whose fault is it that they are misinformed to begin with, and further, that they simply walk away thinking to themselves that he can't possibly be right? It's the fucking narrative man. Who peddles it, predominantly?

I know mate, but the narratives are set in stone by the press - nothing we can do about it.

They all looked like journalists though Or photographers anyway.

The bookies will just be responding to betting patterns man, it's not like they have the inside track

Momentum is supposedly out in all the marginals today. 8000 of them harassing people to vote Not sure how successful it'll be, but I suppose it's worth a shot.

Having a virtue is different to signalling it

Noble and principled stance though. Not that you'd think such things were virtues at all given the sorts of things being said these days.

Hard to say anything other than those people deserve everything they get, frankly.

I actually deeply wish I had your faith in the media. It would make my life so much less enraging.

The Times is owned by Murdoch, why would they want to do anything to harm a Tory victory? I wonder how drunk is drunk enough to be able to handle the results...