Rayvin

Well, there is that. Mind you, there were 40,000 of them out demonstrating in some US city or another over the weekend. You'd think that sort of thing would be noticed. You mentioned Milo before - I note with interest that he's dropped off the face of the earth now that the press aren't interested in him Maybe that's part of the answer?

True. But still, they had 19% don't knows. There's a war for the narrative here and I really don't know which way it'll break. Either way though, what with petitions for Antifa to be branded a terrorist organisation (250,000 sigs in 5 days, it'll now get a response from the White House) we're on the cusp of dialogue being closed down left, right...but not centre.

Yeah, it happened overnight - obviously this is a difficult time for me, I'm not quite sure where to go from here. I think I'm supposed to start voting Tory now..?

FWIW, I would still suggest discussion on this point bringing out a positive outcome, rather than just going in there and tearing things down. Especially since public opinion in the US appears to be that the statues should remain. Also worth noting that 31% of Americans believe that Antifa and the Nazis were as bad as each other in Charlottesville. 28% believe the Nazis were at fault. Believe it or not, I don't make the points I do because I'm a "Nazi". I want the left to win this, obviously (as based on my endless droning on in the other politics threads), because as I have said repeatedly, if it doesn't the populist right will. But the message needs to resonate with enough people - I'm sorry but it does. You need an inclusive, economics based social justice agenda to make this work. You can't demonise the white working classes irrespective of how much you may want to/how much they 'deserve' it. But look, if we have to go for anyone, let's go for middle class white men. Let's make them the enemy. The left could probably win on that. It's not the right solution IMO, but at least it stands a chance of winning.

Of course I was And yeah that's a fair point aside from the racial element actually (which would be enough anyway IMO).

I was genuinely unsure how we had gotten on to me being a racist for a bit but the ignore system really does work well at hiding people's posts in this layout! I'm surprised it's not been taken up a notch to referring to me as an out and out nazi now - that seems to be the level of reasoned analysis we're talking about here. I'm also a satanist for what it's worth. And I eat puppies. I note that 54% of Americans don't think the confederate statues should be torn down. So, they have a more 'extreme right' position than I do on the matter. Heaven only knows what words can be summoned up to describe such people in a bid to shame them out of a discussion.

Iconoclasm is back on the menu it seems, albeit not religiously directed. Confederate statues I think you could make some manner of argument for on the basis that they were put up years after the civil war seemingly in a statement of defiance against black people getting rights. Not that I think they should be torn down by mobs of knuckle draggers, but surely a conversation about whether it's really acceptable to have them there is long overdue. I don't think it is personally, given the context they were put up in. However, we're now getting it taken to extremes, inevitably: Mount Rushmore needs to come down, apparently - https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/9kkkby/lets-get-rid-of-mount-rushmore Along with Nelson's Column - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/22/toppling-statues-nelsons-column-should-be-next-slavery I'd imagine there's a book burning in the offing as well.

Yep, let's go with that.

Off the ball, off camera play, wasn't it?

Ouch.

HF hasn't been actively posting for about a month now... has to be the fish, really.

It's a total shambles. He'll be left with only members of his family.

For real? Thank fuck for that if so.

There aren't militant wings of straight people capitalising on the creation of LGBT groups to push far right agendas. I'm also pro-inclusivity generally. Having dialogue about difficult issues isn't the same as ostracising certain groups so they run over to the nazis. Let's not derail this though.

Fwiw Gloom, if the solution to this current wave of nazi resurgence was to literally shoot them all dead, I'd be fine with it. If that solved it.

I think it'd be well worth doing, especially in the current climate where gay players are starting to risk coming out in public. Twitter remains full of losers but I think we should take encouragement from the fact that the flag was flown. An LGBT group would be a good move for inclusiveness in the support base, which should always be encouraged.

Very droll.

The solution isn't an inclusive approach to nazis.

No solutions then. It is indeed powerful. Hopefully it resonates, although how many Jews voted for Trump in the first place? Surely they can't have been blind to the sort of person Bannon is? Israel seems to back Trump though.

Who the fuck knows man, I said maybe. You're sidestepping the overall thrust of my points here. I'm sure there are people out there who were once nazis and who now aren't fwiw. Bannon says the constant talk about racism by the left will keep giving him political capital to edge out the democrats, the Alt Right say the exact same things. Then we see that in 4 years, white working class America suddenly cares a lot more about their racial identity than they have done previously. The whole dialogue has become poisonous. It's a cancer and it's spreading. Eventually there is going to be a left wing climb down on this, culturally, or we're going to see a race war, hot or cold. The right wants a race war because they'll win it, they're not going to climb down. We do not have to be outmaneuvered here. We can absolutely peg them back. But we need an inclusive approach ffs.

From the Guardian: "Before the 2016 election, many white Americans felt marginalized – relegated in the country they once defined. Many, particularly those in post-industrial regions, had lost once stable jobs and their income has declined. Far worse for many, they felt like they had lost their sense of political clout and social status in American society. During three years of polling and fieldwork in white working-class communities leading up to Trump’s election, I found this marginality anchored by three key sentiments – that many white Americans feel outnumbered, excluded and discriminated against. In data from the nonpartisan, nationally representative American National Election Study (Anes) survey in 2016, white working-class people are more likely to deny the advantages that white people continue to possess, and express a sense that they are subject to unique disadvantages that reinforce their externality. A near majority of white working-class people – white people without university degrees – believed that being white made no difference to their fate in today’s society. Rather, white working-class people were more likely than others to believe their whiteness hurt them. The sample of people were asked: “How many disadvantages do white people have that minorities do not have in today’s society?” Compared with the rest of those surveyed, white working-class people were far less likely to say “none”. However, white working-class people reveal a greater sensitivity to discrimination in all forms – as it hinders their own pursuits, but also as it hinders other constituencies. Still, they perceived discrimination against blacks, Hispanics and women far less than non-whites, and perceived discrimination against whites and Christians more than all others. When compared with non-working-class white people, a greater share of white working-class people believed that losing jobs to minority candidates was “extremely” likely. They were also more likely to believe that “whites working together” is “extremely” important." https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/18/donald-trump-fire-steve-bannon-white-house-nationalism

Well, at least we know what the deal is... And to be honest, if he's not willing or able to put any more money is, there's nothing else to be said, is there? The club is just going to have to spend what it can and hope for the best until we've cemented ourselves again. Or we go down.

The ones whose families were horrified and appalled that their sons had attended, and have subsequently disowned them. They are people who weren't brought up as nazis, who ended up there due to their own insecurity, and who could have been (maybe still could be) turned around. To assume otherwise is effectively to throw in the towel because it's easier to just hate people and draw a line under it. Fair enough if that's your view on it, but it isn't mine.