Rayvin

Yep, but wasn't that true on the right wing side too...? Was under the impression they weren't all nazis.

Just to be clear on this, Antifa absolutely are delighting in the damage they do to Nazis, even the unarmed ones. This is a very tribal thing. And Antifa aren't a response to fascism really. They're a movement to end the power of the nation state and to reintroduce communism. They believe any manifestation of the state in its current form is fascism.

We need rid of all supremacist ideologies full stop. Including patriotism, I would argue.

They're closing down free speech anyway man, if it saves a few lives to do it sooner rather than later then maybe we should just get it over with.

According to Fish, yes. In fact, if I supported the Fish's view here, it would take care of the Antifa problem too. They'd be banned for hate speech and incitement to violence also. I agree that it wouldn't solve anything though.

Do they get them in the US though? Fish might have a point if the US cracks down on them but not on Nazis. I know that the UK was comfortable with Abu Hamza for a lengthy period of time before he was finally deported but I'm not sure what the lay of the land is these days.

Ok you don't care about the nazis. What about everyone else?

Aren't you worried that people will die? When they start shooting each other? The police in the crossfire, innocent civilians? They're doing this in public places - they're effectively letting two stateless armies fight it out in the streets. I don't think it'll be civil war. I think they'll get one big battle where we end up with a heavy number of pointless casualties and then we'll all wake the fuck up. The US will forcibly disband both sides and put them all on watch lists - the right and left wing rhetoric spinners will take a conciliatory approach to coverage and we'll all call for compassion, understanding and unity. Standard human practice. Totally fail to deal with a problem until some significant killing has taken place, and then act like we'll learn lessons from it. Having said all of this - yes, it's utterly repellant that you have armed thugs threatening synagogues and anyone else in their path as part of a resurgence of one of the most appalling ideologies in the modern era. Why the US constitution seems to allow for such things is absolutely beyond me.

I feel compelled to point out that Antifa have been conducting armed protests as well... maybe not this time, but there's plenty of photos of them doing it. They're actively seeking and working on combat training.

Thanks for this, although his post didn't really trouble me. I know my views and I know where they come from. In this, I know I'm neither of those things. Beyond putting KCG on ignore, I didn't feel a need to respond. I suppose I'm not getting the tone right here generally. I'm very aware of insecurity as being a motivator to believe in/act out against all manner of things, and there is just such tribalistic hatred on both sides of the spectrum now that it's pushing people to extremes. It's as if the SJWs and the Alt Right look at each other in the way Newcastle and Sunderland supporters view each other (amongst those who lack any real emotional maturity). My experiences of viewing this will look alien to people who haven't 'seen what I've seen', I guess. And equally, I'm probably colouring the whole issue too much based on my anecdotally witnessed social/alternative media experience. I don't think I'm being influenced by any right wing commentators. I seriously don't - I keep an eye on them to see which way the wind is blowing in the mindsets of the activist right. But I might be overstating the significance of what is happening in and around them and applying it to real world events more so than is warranted. Thus, when I blame the left for being complicit in thrusting people into the arms, it's based on the fact that the right winger commentators swarm around this stuff and you can see them using it to further poison the minds of their following. But I can't turn around and say that they're lying, because someone on the left actually said this stuff. It's depressing.

Yeah that's true, and a good argument against extremism in general. That's where the toxicity of the right wing commentators and so on comes into its own. I also think mental health and wellbeing is a significant factor. And that greater integration into culturally diversity would be beneficial on all sides. It is what it is though, and we have to tackle it.

Indeed. That's not a solution though, that's just a statement. Insecure, emotionally weak and threatened people the world over are a problem. Now that we've said that, what do we do about it? Surely continuing to isolate and castigate them isn't a useful answer?

Well, thanks for the vote of confidence in my intentions. I read as broad and varied a range of media as is possible. I read the Guardian literally every day. I digest more left wing news than right wing - my views are all left wing politically as I think is very well known on here. I don't believe there's an Islamic invasion of Europe going on, I don't believe there is any actual attempt at white genocide, I don't believe much of what I digest from Sargon et al at all, really. What I do see though, is that many people do believe this, and that the reason they do is because it's so easy to point to examples in the left that rather clearly demonstrate a contempt for white men. This is one of the reasons I believe we have Trump in the first place. The number of people who believe this stuff is growing, and yes, that's not the left fault's directly - but indirectly, we need a message for disaffected white working class men that isn't "you're the problem here". That's never going to win them over. And that is absolutely what our message is. I suppose it's beyond naive to hope that we can just try to work through everyone's insecurities with a rational and honest discussion, but that's what I'd do if I was in a position to influence it, and that's all I really believe in.

You know what, fuck it - I've had enough of this now Trump bad. Nazis bad. Antifa good. World is simple. There are no shades of grey. Everything is entirely as the media presents it to be. Is there some sand around to stick my head in?

In terms of ideology you can't compare them. Antifa are well meaning if totally deluded, despite their belief that violence is necessary and their hatred of the soft left and centre (they hate us more than the nazis, incidentally - the nazis are at least honest, apparently). The Nazis are intentionally destructive and the Communists are unintentionally destructive. That said, in terms of tactics being used on the ground, ideologies to one side, they're equivalent right up to the point where that nutter killed a woman. That puts the Nazis ahead in the violence stakes, but it's not for want of trying by Antifa. Both sides believe in violence as a political solution, both sides want to shut down debate, and both sides believe there is a civil war coming and are agitating for it. But look, this isn't actually my main problem here. Antifa can do whatever they like as long as we're not thinking that they're the heroes of this whole affair and thus inadvertently leave the door open for absolute chaos as with when we allied with Stalin to beat the Nazis last time..! The main problem I have here is that the rhetoric being used by Antifa and the SJWs is driving more and more people to the Nazis. Simply put, the 'Nazi high command' must fucking love them. We need to look compassionately at the problem of young white men being radicalised into this, and look at all component factors. Some of those factors absolutely are that these men are very insecure, and that university Professors calling for 'white genocide' and such like are not helping to de-escalate the problem. The reason a sensible conversation on this isn't being had, is that the SJWs and those sympathetic to them know they can't have an honest one which their ideological positions would survive. So they're betting the farm on being able to stop the nazis by force, rather than accept that their ideology, while not as harmful as nazism, is exclusionary and problematic with respect of certain demographics, and that this needs to change.

Antifa.

Well he's fucked Alt Left for me now anyway, he may as well take it.

Not comfortable with Antifa getting the label "Alt Left". I wanted that for when a rational left wing movement was able to develop from the ashes of progressivism and identity politics Also they already have a label. They self identify as anarcho-communists.

I'd be great at that tbf. I should stress that my feelings on this have little to do with Trump though, and everything to do with wanting the increasing tensions to stop.

Yeah but Alex Jones is a bonafide crazy person.

I know, what am I like.

He does seem well suited to the place tbh.

Is that the same Sima from RTG? How comes he only posts there these days

I missed this before, when did I stop liking Jews? I was once subjected to abuse for being Jewish on a train in Bradford. I'm not Jewish of course, but it was an interesting experience.

Good. If they can just do the same with the Daily Stormer we might be getting somewhere.