Rayvin

Hence the need for someone to support them and fight their corner, and why Peterson is so important.

This. All the way.

Ok. Thats not true but ok. If you look at where many of those who attended Charlottesville came from - nice households with no history of racism, who were shocked that their sons were attending such an event, to the point of then excommunucating them from the family... These arent dyed in the wool racists, not all of them.

Well that's what I did at university, and you told me I should have just enjoyed myself more. Implication being "why were you wasting time talking to radfems"

Are the MRAs the same people who rape women? I genuinely don't know but I would be a little surprised by that. A good number of male feminists have been found guilty of it though.

You're saying that learning different perspectives was a bad thing to do. I see. Tbf that would explain the problem within the media in general i guess.

As long as you apply the same scrutiny both ways, fair enough. You cant just purity test one side though.

You dont need to understand why they want what they want, but if you are going to worry about them, as you have confessed to doing because they are "resurgent", surely it would actually make sense for someone to look at WHY this is, instead of just screaming hysterically?

I agree. These are clearly not emotionally stable grown men though. As you say, their position is ridiculous.

Thats great. I'm done with this point unless someone is going to take me to task over the people vs organisations point. Which part of Mainstream and Media is being contended btw? Are the commonly accessed newsources not mainstream? Or are they not media? And if they're all saying the same thing (Corbyn is bad) why not group them? Actually i dont care about this point so I'm happy to just be a hypocrite here if it makes it easier for you.

How convenient on the last point. I see no issue with grouping organisations. They're not people. I mean i use the term 'EU' to group states. MSM is not a personal identity unless we're about to start dividing and politically rallying people by profession as well now.

I went to university, of course i have... And i didnt socialise with them particularly so my view is little more than that they are damaged and insecure people with a bitter world view, likely caused by an unfortunate life story and ideological brainwashing. Much like the MRAs.

I dont think you see enough of this world to say that though. There are more than enough of these people out there on all sides, and if you're going to get "worried" by an increase in nazism in the US, then you owe it to yourself to understand what these people are a reaction to. Both sides fuel and create each other, both sides are becoming more influential, and it really is going to start pervading mainstream society in a noticeable way if it hasnt already. As for the MSM i dont see a problem with that collective grouping really. Corporate media any better? MSM has negative connotations I suppose but i think it is useful to be reminded that no news source is pure.

You were the one who said MRAs came before the radfems... dont complain to me that it isnt true. And my very limited understanding of MRA focal points is that they calpaign for mens issues eith respect of court systems and also on issues like the relative underfunding of prostate cancer versus breast cancer. A topical point given that prostate cancer now kills more people and is significantly less well funded. I noted with interest that the Guardian blamed men for this nothing if not consistent. I just can't get on board with the bollocks anymore. Far rather just look at the issues without ideological lenses. As for the whole threat aspect, it depends what you mean. Feminists have social power and some of their headliners are openly calling for female supremacy. Not a threat to me personally but i can see how others would take it that way.

If you have been so emotionally crushed by your relationship with a woman, presumably through emotional and or physical abuse, why would you be expected, just because you're a man, to have no lasting damage done to your perception of the other sex? These people need counselling and therapy more often than not, rather than suggestions that they are raped for the crime of being damaged - a comment i found rather unbelievable but the bar is pretty high on here sometimes. I despair at the lack of empathy people have for each other sometimes. People are made hateful, they don't start that way. And i would say the same thing about islamic terrorists fwiw. And any other extremist who peddle hatred because of the damage that has been done to them and the brainwashing they have accepted in a search for meaning.

Save for Ctrl left which is used ironically about 3 times 2 years ago, the other labels are self identifiers for the groups in question. I didnt name them that, and i see them as individuals. Individuals infected by groupthink and ideology.

Tom in real danger of joining me as a nazi here.

MRAs predate the SCUM manifesto? I doubt it but i could be wrong. Either way i dont see them as a general threat to anyone within society. Isolated and powerless. Don't agree about his 'followers' being branded as nazis. Or at least that this is a problem. I got called a nazi and it changed precisely zero about what i think about anything and only served to weaken the power of the term. Everyone and their dog is being called a fascist these days, and i really think apathy around the labels is now going mainstream. Peterson's book is a bestseller in the UK, the US, Canada and Australia. I dont think he has been fatally undermined but tbh I'm not looking for him to be a political symbol so my scope for judgement may not be accurate. I just think what he says makes sense when i hear it from him directly and not filtered through a media narrative. Gem, MRAs are Mens Rights Activists. Think feminism but for men but eithout the cultural acceptance. MGTOW stands for Men Going Their Own Way. Generally men who have been emotionally devastated in a relationship with women and who now see all women as evil and have sworn off them. Again, not entirely unlike certain feminists.

What is -your- problem with MRAs? I mean I get that they are generally frowned upon as being misogynists but they're no worse than the misandry arm of feminism from what I've seen. Hardly a serious problem for society either? Unless I'm missing something. They have no platform and hardly any mainstream voice. The misandrists have far bigger reach IMO because several of them regularly publish in the Guardian. I think you want him to be too pure. This is a culture "war". If he acknowledges a weakness in his own flank and tries to rise above the politicization of everything, he's only weakening his cause. War of narratives, etc etc. He's playing the same game as everyone else involved on that front.

MGTOWs have just given up on women altogether from what I understand, but I'm not hugely familiar with it. And why does he need to shout them down? The left already does that. Forcefully. In platforms like the Guardian. That's not his agenda - and if his goal is to help 'men' then surely going in and poisoning the well against some of the most disaffected men going, as a psychologist, isn't really a starting point. It's also not his fault that you haven't seen the material he's talking about them on... I mean remember he's just a professor. Until a year ago, no one knew who the fuck he was. As for Channel 4, he had no ability to set the agenda there at all. Here's another video of him doing it btw:

On MRAs:

He has called out the Alt Right plenty of times as far as I can see... Maybe depends what you mean by 'call out'? There was a controversy a couple of weeks ago because Google took down a video he posted explaining his position on it. He is "for" the individual, and "against" the identitarians. So naturally he would criticise both the far left and the far right (since they both see identity as superceding the individual)

He's a psychology professor who happens to take a dim view of the prevailing narratives on gender studies and their real world implications. He became famous when he refused to comply with a law which could have been interpreted as forcing him to use gender non-binary (i know) pronouns. His position was that if asked by an individual student he would refer to them as they wanted, but would not be mandated to by the state (Canada). So then that caused a storm with the SJWs which they must now regret as it catapulted him into the public eye. He started releasing youtube content related to the issue and became popular with people disillusioned with SJW leftism (me) and also unavoidably, the alt right. So then he becomes an alt right weapon against the SJWs, who in turn perceive him as a nazi. The guardian considers him to be a misogynist because lots of men listen to him and he opposes the SJWs, etc etc, culture wars. Aside from all of this, he has loads of videos on YouTube with really good advice for young men about how to find meaning and be useful members of society - but the SJWs and Alt right cant politicise that so no one cares. Thats what he is really about though. EDIT - he was also the intellectual source of the Google controversy with James D'Amore, which is what ultimately had me branded as a misogynist and a nazi.

He's a threat to the ideological position ultimately. The thing that pisses me off about all of this though is that the stuff he says is actually helpful (or has been for me) from a psychological standpoint. Leave behind the culture wars, feminism, SJWs and all of that bollocks, he actually says some profoundly helpful things. But no one cares because he's now a political actor in the battle between the SJWs and the Alt Right.

I assume CT's point about single market access is that we will technically still be trading with them even after we leave the single market. It's not quite the same though... we will be trading with the EU, but we won't have access to the SM...