Rayvin

I'm not even saying anyone here is wrong about Corbyn, but Renton specifically mentioned Neoliberalism as if that was the alternative to Corbyn. I'm not voting for it.

I'm not getting a rise out of you...am I? Look we've been round the houses on this before, you guys drew me into this so i dont know what you expected.

In which case why are we reading anything into the results of these elections at all? Well I'm not tbh, so why are you, is the better question. And i dont disagree with Renton fwiw, I'm just throwing your logic back at you.

Without Brexit i think they would have. Unfortunately the radical agenda the public went with was a right wing one, because it was served up first. And also, i would add, appeals more to the baser urges of the electorate.

The public were ready to break under austerity and would have kicked the government with any radical agenda. So I'm going to just flat out disagree with you on that one.

And? His vote makes Labour look weak, increases uncertainty and reduces stability in the party. Remember that:

Not yet it isn't. Although Renton did just vote for a non-Labour candidate.

I've been saying that austerity produced Brexit since the damn thing happened. And Labour under Miliband refused to oppose it. So... you've heard me say this before is all I'm saying.

Fair point CT. I'll judge the policy positions of whoever follows Corbyn, assuming it isnt one of the centrists. If i can support enough of them, they get my vote. If i can't, I'm ignoring the whole shitshow. If that means the Tories then that's on the people who voted for them. New Labour is just a slower descent to the same place though, and their failure to oppose austerity is what landed us Brexit.

Remind me, what was the New Labour stance on austerity? Its not a matter of principle. I'm just not going to enable the shit anymore. Same position i had pre-Corbyn. I wont be alone either. Had the Corbyn experience been allowed to run its course without the levels of bitching, lying and sabotage from the rest of his party and the press, i might have tried to find the effort to hold my nose and vote... but frankly they're not worth my support. None of them.

I dont think theyre as bad as the Tories. If nothing else New Labour were more competent. Tbh though maybe you're right about them being able to defeat the Tories in Corbyn's position. Unfortunately i wouldn't be able to vote for them though.

I was under the impression that Labour was continuing to flip flop on Brexit. You know what though, if further down the line the Tories finally nail the plan for Brexit and it is, as predicted, an absolute shambles with hardly any public support - and then Labour rally around the single market as a sane solution in response, you guys are never going to hear the end of it from me Kind of like how I never hear the end of your bleating about Corbyn now

Yep, so the Tories forever. Ever lowering levels of competence. At some point a centre left party will split off from Labour, obliterate the left wing, and deliver a 200 seat majority to the Tories. The NHS will be sold off, people will be dying in their homes as heating becomes too pricey over winter and healthcare out of reach of the poorest in society. Disaffected youths will form gangs in the inner cities, with police unable to control them due to ever increasing cuts. Soon only privileged areas can be protected properly, leading to segregation of rich and poor with the former in gated communities. Or we could vote for a guy who wants to make the world a little fairer by using a fiscally responsible strategy of borrowing to invest, which would very likely hurt those at the top a bit, but which would demonstrate that we really are 'all in this together'.

I so badly want to apologise for that...

Aha, and naturally, that's what they were all thinking when they had that leadership challenge? Fearing for their own positions?

I would have done that and I'm a Remainer.

Yeah no way am I getting involved in this one again No thanks. It doesn't even matter anyway, whatever his personal beliefs are, he followed party line on Brexit and urged Labour to vote Remain - which they did. 65% of Labour voters went Remain. Eclipsed only slightly by the Lib Dems at 68%!

How is that clear? I remember what he was saying in the run up and it was pro-Remain with touches of 'we should push for democratic reform within the EU itself. If you're basing it on his position following the referendum, most of Labour has gone with him on that. Were they all closet leavers?

What can the Tories offer that will appeal to anyone once Brexit is out of the way? More of the same?

Well, I think zerosum might be a Tory. He waded into the politics threads on the EU debate but didn't get as embroiled as you (he's pro-Brexit). We don't get that many though, and it really is important to work out whether they're wumming or not.

Sane.

Then I humbly submit that Renton is no longer a socialist He's a Blairite ffs, and while I will accept readily that he is socialist in some ways, he's clearly a proponent of the centre more than the left. Although tbh, I agree with every word of that quoted post.

Tbh I don't really agree with the Lords having any real power except as a sense check for Parliament. If you'd asked me pre-Brexit I would have said it needs to go. But that was before I realised collective insanity was a viable government policy. Now I think as a check and balance it could be valuable. It could even reign in a "socialist" government, were we ever to have one.

You mean because it's politically convenient for your side? No. Let's wait until they're blocking something left wing and then abolish it.

Yep, quite possibly true. Still though, Labour can't be allowed to go back to the centre without reform first.