Rayvin

Out of interest, what in your view, is the appropriate response Remainers should be taking to a political action that has made the country unrecognisable for many of us, and which we fear will damage the standard of living for our children? Pointless argument. This is an adult conversation and no one is throwing punches. We're entitled to think the people who voted out were ill-informed and no one on here doesn't understand the reasons for the vote or what people were thinking - we went through this in tremendous detail at the time. But take immigration as one point - say 25% of the people who voted out did so to curb immigration - I think it's over 30% actually but let's keep it conservative since it doesn't matter. We have David Davis here claiming that immigration could fall to almost zero in the weeks before the referendum: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/26/immigration-could-fall-to-almost-zero-if-uk-leaves-eu-says-david-davis And then we have Amber Rudd saying that it won't actually change, months afterwards: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/26/immigration-will-not-dramatically-fall-after-brexit-says-amber-rudd So, the people who voted to curb immigration clearly aren't getting what they want, and immigration will continue as normal. Those people's reasons for voting out are now moot. 25-30% of the overall Brexit vote is enough to lose the referendum on. That's just one issue. The fact is, you can take every single 'reason' for voting out, demonstrate the fallacy of the argument, and take it apart - with the sole exception of sovereignty. And even then it's not going to be anywhere near the level of autonomy that people seemed to think they would get.

Given that it was a lie, what is to stop anyone protesting it. Even the arch-capitalists are calling it a lie: http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/03/06/john-redwood-admits-it-there-never-was-a-reason-for-austerity/

That is brilliant

Tbf it's not, I just remember a lot of waffle about it being over from May throughout the past two years: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-austerity-brexit-plans-uk-leave-eu-hard-soft-latest-tax-cuts-welfare-benefit-a7787001.html There's been a clear sea change from the Tories on it in terms of narrative since Brexit (and the election).

I think lessons have been learned along the lines of "The older generations have utterly fucked us because we didn't care, and we cannot let that happen again"

So you think that the Tories ditching it as soon as the referendum results were confirmed doesn't suggest that they know it was linked? Curious.

I doubt that mistake would be made a second time.

Possibly, but then the Tories are yet to do anything to actually make anyone's lives better - so even though austerity has technically been abandoned, I don't know if many people even notice. The damage it did isn't being reversed. I think if you had a Labour government actually helping people, no way Brexit happens at a repeat vote.

Aye but they wouldn't be enough to win it. Well, saying that, maybe combined with people who now realise they voted the wrong way but have too much pride to change their view, perhaps anything is possible.

Referendum result was a lashing out response to the lie of austerity. Or at least there was enough of that mixed up in it to make the difference. Since the Tories have now admitted austerity was ideologically driven bullshit which has been unceremoniously abandoned in an act of pure fear at the outcome of Brexit, I think it's fair to say that 'the majority' you refer to no longer exists in terms of why the damn thing happened.

You'll get a lot of support for that opinion on here. Although personally I would say that Momentum almost single handedly brought the Tories to their knees last time out, and that if they had someone more competent at the helm they would have a far easier job of things. They function as a media bypass, taking political messages unedited directly to the electorate. If the enthusiasm remains, they should win out in the end. Remember that Labour won the vote share for everyone under 45. Momentum did its job - it was out on the streets in force. And remember it was on the defensive last time out. Had they attacked, we would almost certainly have seen the back of Rudd, if not many others. https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/01/jeremy-corbyns-takeover-is-complete-and-the-tories-are-terrified/ Momentum, a group that did not exist four years ago, has instead succeeded in taking over a party: the leadership and the membership. The NEC changes mean Momentum’s reverse takeover of the Labour party is now complete, and Labour MPs are now its hostages. MPs who complain about hard-left takeover will be told that this is not ‘entryism’ but simple democracy — which it is. Momentum found and inspired thousands to join the Labour party and call the shots. It deserves its victory.

I can never quite decide if I hate Gove or Johnson more. It speaks volumes about those two that Hunt isn't even in that equation tbh. May I can't hate anymore. She's too pathetic.

What ideology is it that you think Renton has?

That is a pathetic overreaction from Sunderland

Gove has just claimed that Brexit has made the UK the most immigration friendly country in the EU

Kudos.

Ahhhh. Ok i got you. Pro-Sargon? I thought the nazi pug affair was insane but that isnt much of a statement.

Tbh i hope this guy stays. Should improve debate considerably. It can get a bit echo chamber esque i here.

Amazing.

Remind me... unlimited capitalism? Or have I got that wrong? The free market is paramount, right?

Yeah that word is being used by almost all sides of the political spectrum now so it doesn't help much. I guess it'll become clear over time. FWIW I'm liberal too.

Separate question - where would you place yourself on the political spectrum?

Would you accept a reformed EU that elected officials and had greater accountability?

Really? British people strike me as particular susceptible to being sleep walked into fascism given our predilection for just accepting the reality of things and not actually taking any action to bring about change from the ground up.

straight into the EU thread. @SpaceCadet Its worth making clear tbh that hardly anyone on here voted out. No one will make a big issue of it generally but you're going to be standing alone in here on this. Well you'll have CT but thats actually worse than nothing.