Rayvin

Good thing I don't want a hard left utopia then (was that a pun or a typo?). I want a scandinavian model CT. That's all. That's all Labour seem to be proposing as well. The second they go further, they can be kicked out. I want a mixed economy. Not this privitised, dysfunctional hellhole that we seem to be living in. There are many examples of successful, functional mixed economies. The fact that you have to take the most extreme vision says it all. It's like when people on the left go around branding anyone with concerns about immigration a nazi. It's the same non-engagement with the argument.

Do you have anything to put forward about the state of the country in the 70s? I like to think I'll give a balanced hearing to everything to be honest CT, it's why I get called a nazi from time to time. I don't think you can dismiss the IMF and university level research as bollocks though. What about the water company thing? That's not just been made up, it's demonstrably true. As is the economic placement of the UK versus other nations. So those are facts. Is your contention that there are other factors at play?

Sorry it took me a little while to respond to this. It's already been mentioned that if Labour are 'wrong' they can be voted out in a few years time. The Brexit issue has a far more striking permanence. I would prefer to live under the Tories for probably the next 15 years than leave the EU. Possibly longer. You see Venezuela as the extreme outcome for what happens if Corbyn gets in. For me, and I guess others, hard Brexit is the equal and equivalent outcome for what happens if right wing nut jobs get in, as they appear to have done. The thing is though, your 'fear' of Venezuela is incredibly unlikely to happen in the UK, and as I have said, can be counteracted at key intervals (unless you really, genuinely think that we would have armed police on the streets suppressing a vote). Our equal and opposite scenario with Brexit is right on our doorstep. So maybe when you read our comments, try to consider that we fear the outcome of Brexit in the same way that people with poor critical thinking skills and a general lack of comprehension about the economy fear Corbyn being elected. Brexit is our Venezuela. After reading that Neoliberalism article that I posted about in the politics thread, I am more convinced than ever before that everything the Tories say about the economy is delusional fantasy aimed at covering up decades of failed ideologically driven policy-making spanning two parties (depressingly), and until someone on the right can turn around and tell me why any of it is a better strategy than what Corbyn is proposing, using ACTUAL FUCKING ARGUMENTS with EVIDENCE, STATISTICS, INFORMATION THAT CAN BE RATIONALLY ASSESSED, etc, I'm just going to consider that anyone who brings up Venezuela is effectively admitting that they don't have the faintest clue what they're talking about. That should be your standard too, CT. When we give you information about Brexit, it has all the things I've put in caps. You can argue against it, sure, but it has to be using the same stuff. Until that happens, you have nothing to say. And I've seen nothing from the right which is any better researched or articulated than (and I'm not exaggerating here) the sorts of arguments Wolfy would make. Whether you agree with that or not, that is how it looks to people like me. That is why we get so worked up. It looks like the whole country woke up one morning and became completely delusional.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/17/economic-lies-neoliberalism-taxpayers This is a really good article. Since I know not everyone has time to read it, and because I think it's important, I'll summarise (though you'll doubtless get better info from the article itself). 1 - Privisation has failed as an economic strategy for maximising Britain's wealth potential. 2 - The IMF published a report (ignored by the BBC it seems, along with the government) that looked at 31 nations including many of our European partners, and found that Britain had the weakest economic position of all of them with the exception of Portugal. This was down to the fact that we have been selling off public assets in such a way that we have £5tn liabilities, and only £3tn assets. Gambia and Kenya were included amongst countries outperforming us. 3 - I'm going to paste this bit in word for word: Almost as startling are the IMF’s reasons for why Britain is in such a state: one way or another they all come back to neoliberalism. Thatcher loosed finance from its shackles and used our North Sea oil money to pay for swingeing tax cuts. The result is an overfinancialised economy and a government that is £1tn worse off since the banking crash. Norway has similar North Sea wealth and a far smaller population, but also a sovereign wealth fund. Its net worth has soared over the past decade. The other big reason for the UK’s financial precarity is its privatisation programme, described by the IMF as no less than a “fiscal illusion”. British governments have flogged nearly everything in the cupboard, from airports to the Royal Mail – often at giveaway prices – to friends in the City. Such privatisations, judge the fund, “increase revenues and lower deficits but also reduce the government’s asset holdings”. Specifically for CT: Throughout the austerity decade, ministers and economists have pushed for spending cuts by pointing to the size of the government’s annual overdraft, or budget deficit. Yet there are two sides to a balance sheet, as all accountants know and this IMF work recognises. The same goes for our public realm: if Labour’s John McDonnell gets into No 11 and renationalises the railways, that would cost tens of billions – but it would also leave the country with assets worth tens of billions that provided a regular income. Instead, what this IMF research shows is that the Westminster classes have been asset-stripping Britain for decades – and storing up financial trouble for future generations. 4 - Privitisation has given unearned wealth to a privileged few. A study carried out by Greenwich University revealed that if water companies remained public they would be able to operate day to day and invest in long term projects for the future. Instead, having gone private, they have accumulated £51bn of debt, as a result of making payments to shareholders (solely as a result of this) that we will all be paying for, through our bills, for years. 5 - Neoliberalism has not only failed to make Britain economically stronger (proving that Thatcher was indeed bad for this country on every conceivable level), it has made us all poorer, and continues to rip us off.

What if you're wrong CT?

If anyone, anywhere, comes out of this even remotely pleased with what's gone on, how we've arrived at it, or what it actually means for our future, then they're deluded beyond all hope and prayer. I give up. The Tories can set about wrecking the country, pulling it apart, I just can't handle watching anymore. Fuck you democracy, you massive, easily manipulated fucking lie.

Tbf to Gloom though it does sound like he's doing his bit.

It's good that the US takes a lot of the brunt of global warming though. Hopefully it'll sink in eventually.

Can see Essembee's point here to a degree, but it depends on the kind of 'racist' they are. If they're just ignorant fucks who've never really thought about the consequences of the things they're saying when they started being brandished by a fascist government, then maybe a sobering trip to Auschwitz might make them wake up to what they're saying a bit more. On the other hand, if they're open nazis, then yeah - not so sure.

The wall street journal has bigger fish to fry. They're focused on looking woke as a substitute for having moral substance.

Amazed how resistant people were on this 10 years ago. You can fucking see its true just looking at historical weather data. Does anyone really, seriously contend that man is not directly influencing it any more?

CT is at least honest about this. I'm not much better than him. Still eat meat, recycle only because its been made so easy, etc. Governments need to mandate the changes. As with Brexit, the people are too stupid to be given a choice and expected to act accordingly. Realism needs to take hold.

Where is he now anyway? Scottish football? EDIT - Milwall apparently.

You have to remember that CT believes that the more money you have, the more infallible you are.

It's not a touch screen thing anyway so would be awkward for a browser.

I'm sure it's only this important to them because they're so determined not to be wrong. Insecure, weak people. If there was even a remotely compelling vision for a post-Brexit UK, you could have some sympathy with them - but there just isn't. For all JRM says we'll be better off in 50 years - we'll be back in by then anyway!

Going to try it out then. Thanks for the heads up.

It will require government subsidy. Only way it can work, surely. Unless they're about to get rid of the minimum wage.

The only argument I can think of for this, is that relocating their operations to mainland Europe would be costly and expensive, moreso than presumably sponsoring the move of their suppliers to the UK. Nissan would have to pay for the latter, surely. Although I'm puzzled, if these companies are prepared to move to the UK, why don't British companies just replace them anyway? Presumably because labour costs are too high here to make them competitive. Which is the same problem that these newly located businesses will have if they set up shop in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/oct/07/macron-woos-uk-car-firms-over-private-dinner Macron had a business dinner with the heads of major British based car manufacturers to offer them a better environment to operate in - presumably in France. @Christmas Tree France doesn't appear to be behaving in a way that suggests they're about to back down.

That flashed through my mind, but I'm not quite savage enough to say it Thanks for giving voice to my inner demons.

"Some of us remember what the country was like before the EU destroyed it" These people need to be forcibly educated.

I'm late to the party here but... why are you here? Let us vent about our team and the game, it's not like you guys dont do the same thing in similar circumstances. What does it say about your life that you're on here doing this. Fucking hell man. It's depressing.

We're going to rescue Man Utd's season here.

He'd inevitably end up being the one they'd make an example of, and we'd never hear the end of it