Rayvin

He was of course, not actually a socialist, as i recall. Although i see the Tommy Robinson types seem to have started throwing that one about to discredit the left these days so given a little while, that'll be revisioned too.

Hugely socialist position this. I think CT has suffered from hard left entryism.

Honestly, the more time passes, the more it looks like Blair was probably the only real leader New Labour had. And probably the last great statesman of our era. I'll never understand those fucking wars but he didn't do a lot else wrong in the context of the time, if that's what you want to hear. I'm really not saying they should have known, or were deceitful, or anything. I'm saying that history shows now that they had the opportunity to do some things better and didn't. Hindsight is 20:20, sure, but the lesson needs to be learned.

Agree there was no need for it then. But the world moved to the right after 2008 and it needs to move to the left again. New Labour went right with the Tories, that was their mistake not mine.

I dont want a socialist government. I dont. I want a mixed economy that broadly looks like the Scandinavian models. I dont know how many times I've said this. Corbyn is a socialist, yes. But he's not going to even be alive long enough to make the UK a fully socialist country CT. At best he's going to pull us over on a number of issues and then probably get voted out for incompetence 5 years down the line, or replaced by a more standard Labour politician. The manifesto they put out wasn't for a wholesale socialist society. And i read the whole thing. I actually read all sides of the cultural discourse which is why i am branded both a Nazi and a socialist on here.

Oh come on man, we've been round the houses on this so many times that i'm actually certain you've agreed eith me previously on both the austerity point and on New Labour being neoliberal. I'm not saying that they were evil, but i am convinced, latterly, given the way the world went, that their inaction on a number of social fronts that would have been addressed by a more progressive left wing government - immigrant integration programs, more progressive taxation etc - that would have helped to fend off the nightmare we are currently living. Having said that, maybe it would have made no difference. And i certainly thought at the time that New Labour was as close to perfect as I was ever going to see from a government. Which remains true to this day actually. But still, they weren't as socially focused as Scandinavian countries were they? As for austerity, you're right about why Miliband did it but it's no fucking excuse. Not for what happened. It's unforgivable IMO. He was supposed to fight against stupid, ideologically driven financial drivel from the Tories and he enabled it almost to the extent Clegg did. I recall the Tories claiming Labour would have cut more, not that I remember how true that was. No one is going to convince me austerity was necessary because it wasn't. For all you can talk about Keynesian stimuli, did Labour say anything of the sort at the time?

Yeah I'm not saying that was a proud moment for the school tbh but i think that sort of level of violence is quite standard. This story became blown out of all proportion because of the racist angle which I was fine with up until it became clear that there was no obvious racist intent. Now it looks like the media did it for kicks.

Aye, i saw the video and agree that it's a pathetic instance of bullying, but the fact remains that he hasn't actually said anything racist in that video which is actually a tad surprising. Nor does he mention waterboarding which i would have taken as a dog whistle for racism. It's not for the press to make these judgements. And his parents may well be racist arseholes but that's very much a 'sins of the father' style of line. As it is, they've now been driven out of their home as a result of death threats and vigilante justice. Honestly think the press have made this far worse than it really is. When i was at school i saw one kid throttle another with barbed wire ffs. Didn't even make local news as far as i know, although the kid was expelled.

The Tories have been funding political smear campaigns against Corbyn and Labour, from the public purse, for two years. To the tune of £2.5m. This is against the rules of course, and utterly shameful - but fuck all will happen and CT will assure us that this is somehow Corbyn's fault anyway. https://labour.org.uk/press/emily-thornberry-responds-reported-government-funded-attacks-labour-party/

Depends though. Centrist by historical standards, no way. Centrist by current standards... I mean yeah, I think it was. Both New Labour and the Tories backed it. If that isn't the current 'centre' I don't know what is. And since moderate left is now equivalent to Communism apparently, according to the oracle CT, who the fuck knows what centrist is these days. A couple of years after No Deal, Centrist will probably mean advocating policies where only the poor are shot dead in the streets, and not the poor and middle class together.

I do understand what the hard left is. You do not.

Looking at RTG, they look pretty nervous about this to me - and in truth, it sucks for them. As many of them have said, it's lose-lose for Sunderland None of us are going to care if our under 21s side lose to them. But if we win, our lot will be excruciating about it

We've been through this man... New Labour was all well and good at the time but if Neoliberalism is what has brought us to this point then it has to be accepted that Blair encouraged this.

Without Corbyn I'm not sure that shift happens. But I voted for him to force the discourse back to the left and he has. I need to be convinced that the centre understands this though.

They certainly weren't promising it pre-Corbyn.

He was going to in effect, end austerity.

I will never understand how people from all sides of the discussion, after fucking eons of centrist rule, and the resultant chaos, can look at the situation and go 'you know what'll fix this? the same shit that we've been doing for the past 30 years'. It's absolute, unmitigated bollocks. And it comes from being in the position of having a relatively comfortable life.

A moderate could certainly get elected. But they wouldn't actually fix anything.

What evidence is there that a moderate could succeed in those things given that moderates are actually responsible for their implementation? You let the centre off way too much with this shitstorm. The right told the lies that got us here, the left was invisible, but the centre enacted the motherfucking policies. Fucking own it. You guys are not the answer until you do what NJS is saying and actually start listening to people. The centre needs to move left and embrace a left wing economic vision over and above neoliberalism. Until it does this, and i see no evidence so far that it has, it will continue to ignore the needs of the people who voted leave almost by default.

Does a lot of work off camera though iyam.

Or maybe they're trying to indicate that money saved from the EU is indeed being spent on the NHS...

Ah. Fair enough then.

If I fill in May's deal for the second option, then I'm giving her a vote that could be added to a tally which defeats Remain, am I not? Or have I misunderstood this?

I wonder if they could get away with not having it on there. I've also been wondering about this second choice thing - like you choose Remain and then have to choose again between No Deal and May. Would the second choice be mandatory?