Rayvin

Keegan certainly doesn't seem to be the kind of person who can handle being lied to in the way that Benitez has though. Otherwise agree, I doubt it all went down entirely as either side is describing it. That said, I'd trust Keegan far, far more on the stuff that they both recount - I imagine the truthful bits about Jimenez's story are the bits on which Kevin hasn't expressed an opinion.

Interesting account. Certainly doesn't paint Keegan as favourably as we had assumed.

0-0 or a lucky 1-0 either way.

Why...

You're right. 90% back remain, 86% back a second referendum.

Like fuck are they Like fuck. You've put the tweet forward from a hardcore left winger there incidentally, CT. You and the 'extremists' finding common ground now?

The union memberships backed Remain also, as I recall. WTF is this from Labour, seriously. I've gone along with this whole thing for ages on the basis that honestly, declaring early for Remain wouldn't have been strategically useful IMO. But we're in the home straight now for the whole thing and they've got fucking nothing to lose. Are they really that determined to pick up the UKIP working class that they aren't concerned about losing the middle class left and young in the process? Because they're fucking going to. And we're the ones who got them to where they fucking are in the first place. McLuskey can just fuck off and he can take McDonnell with him. Corbyn has been fucking anonymous on this so I fully expect that they're operating with his full backing here. I still haven't cancelled membership because I concluded in the end that there may be a more useful moment in which to do so but how are these people not getting the message. If they don't back Remain on a referendum ticket, I'm not even sure I could vote for them at a GE. Maybe they're relying on people like me being more concerned about denying the Tories than we are about the EU, but the Tories are no fucking threat to me personally. In a straight run off between the options of a socialist Labour government + Brexit and Tory government + Remain, I'll take the latter every fucking time. Even if I have to vote for the Lib Fucking Dems to do it. As ill as it would make me.

Fucking good.

I can't either but I'm sure either Renton or ewerk have said that it was. So much info around at the time i guess it passed us by.

Not to parrot CT, but I feel Labour would have struggled also. It's a nigh on impossible issue thanks to Ireland, and it's hardly like we have any standout politicians kicking around these days who could possibly have 'charisma'd' it through. Most Labour voters back Remain though. And the Indy seems to think that about 100 constituencies that voted Leave would now go Remain. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-polling-leave-remain-voters-westminster-constituencies-final-say-second-referendum-a8488001.html

Almost no one won that referendum, as evidenced by the fact that literally no one predicted we would get what we are getting, and that almost no one seems to be happy about it.

That's assuming Mogg gets in though - his stock is high right now because we're literally immersed in Brexit. If that gets put to bed with a Remain outcome, are the Tories really going to allow it to become a focal point for the party once again by getting Mogg in as PM and living or dying by having what would ultimately become yet another referendum on EU membership? If you mean that we get a GE and May goes, Mogg comes in pre-referendum then ok, it's a more credible threat - but one that's splitting the Leavers right down the middle concerning going for UKIP or the Tories. The less intelligent ones go for UKIP, the slightly higher brow ones go for the Tories, and they end up stealing votes off each other. If Labour goes Remain, I don't think there's any realistic prospect of anyone giving votes to the Lib Dems in such a way as to split the Remain vote.

I don't see it as a solution to anything tbh, it's just a better playing field in which to try and thrash everything out than 'No Deal' would be. We're far better able to put effort into resolving society's problems and concerns from inside the EU. If we stay, and a lot of leavers are pissed off... I mean what are they actually going to do about it? If it's following a second referendum then as ewerk says, they can't really make any criticisms about democratic will, etc. If they all run off and join UKIP it won't be the end of the world. Sure they might win a few seats here and there but realistically, they're not going win power - and a party that staggeringly incompetent wouldn't be able to keep them over the long term anyway.

Mitrovic is the first player we have sold in ages who has actually gone on to be decent following his departure. There are enough Sissoko's behind us for the odd Mitrovic to get through. Generally we sell people and they are shite going forward, which is all we could ask And if we'd bought someone decent this summer, I doubt we'd even be talking about Mitro beyond the occasional "pleased for the lad" etc.

I agree. Sick of McDonnell threatening us with the rise of UKIP as if they realistically stand any chance. I'm going to terminate my membership, this continuous lying is not acceptable.

Buying us involves spending time negotiating with Ashley, and honestly, looking at how he fucking conducts himself, a lot of people may well just think 'fuck that'.

Serious about thinking a deal will still be on.

Are you serious?

I agree with him, especially because it doesn't actually seem that any other option exists What else would we put on there?

Surely if it comes down to it, the SNP will throw in with Labour. They have a really strong basis to do so given Scotland's referendum voting record. If we do get this referendum, what do we say or do this time to get a Remain outcome?

How is it possible that CT has still found a way to argue about Brexit... it's clearly no deal or Remain now, so honestly, every prediction he's made about it has turned out to be entirely based on swallowing government rhetoric, and obviously also, entirely incorrect.

If I could be convinced that a millionaire backed centrist party was capable of delivering the best outcomes for the majority of people in this country, I would vote for it despite my misgivings over its motives.

Cameron was the centre ground and Labour were just one or two policies off his position. We couldn't have been any more fucking central than we were when the whole thing fell apart. The extreme right standing policy for taking control is to wait for an economic shitstorm and then use it to capitalise on widespread discontent. That discontent was fostered over 8 years of centre-right Tory rule, and pointless undifferentiated opposition to it. Now yes, I know the opposition we have now is doing exactly the same thing with Brexit that Miliband did with austerity, but that says more about how fucking pointless democracy is in general than it does about anything else. Agree on the last bit - we do need to do this. But I don't think we -can- do this without a left wing government being installed first, otherwise the 'centreground' that we establish is going to look exactly like where the Tories are standing right now.

Have a feeling there may be more to this post that didn't survive somehow but to take it as it is now - we do have a centre ground. It's the Lib Dems. Nuff fucking said. Do agree about them being... well not extremist but certainly not centre. How does the centre, which brought us to this point in the first place remember, get out of jail free in your analysis btw?

That is the most damning indictment of anything, I've ever heard.