Rayvin

Yep, I agree, but we've lost the fucking argument. We just have. It doesn't make sense, it's based on fucking nothing, but we need a change of narrative to counter it because 'everything is fine, stop overreacting' isn't working against irrational people.

Aye but nationalism has been intelligently wielded by the far right with the argument that a 'nationalist' can be someone of any colour, who wants what is best for the country. Unlike a racist.

I honestly think we have to back away from this argument - and by 'we', I mean the rational people in society. Whether we're right in our views on it or not, we've clearly lost the argument for now at least. Continuing to force this issue (and I do think that there are some valid concerns from 'the other side' on this, especially concerning the government's ongoing failure to integrate people into society, which appears to consist of relying on the children of immigrants to be 'normalised' by TV and school) is only making the centre look apathetic to the concerns of the lower middle and working classes, and they no longer trust the establishment voices above the right wing outlets and the crazies. I wish the EU itself would understand that immigration has just been too much for some people, and that the chance they had to shape the narrative around it has been lost. There's too much at stake across Europe now with the rise of the far right everywhere, and the longer they fail to address it, the harder they'll have to be when they finally do act on it.

Well that's unquestionably true for some of them and we see that day in, day out on here. But maybe if they were more used to hearing it...!

Regarding Corbyn, I dont understand what any of these politicians are gaining from delusional comments like that. Why bother claiming something so patently untrue. Why not just treat the public like fucking adults and tell them the truth?

Sounds like good news, let's re-run it then.

I wouldn't worry about it, he'll have resigned in a couple of days.

The Guardian has a graphic depicting the different factions and how they might vote. It's interactive as well so CT can move the sliders to show us how she's going to have unanimous support in the end. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2018/nov/15/can-you-get-mays-brexit-deal-through-parliament I think they're right with a lot of it. Forgot Kate Hoey rejected the deal as well.

CT and May will be the last ones standing on this deal in the end.

It's not her personal credibility that is being voted on though, it's the deal. She isn't the next Thatcher man, she cant strong arm this through by force of will. The deal will be voted for or against based on its merits and background political fear about alternatives. That's it. No one is going to vote for it because they think May is a strong leader.

That is a long way from the most corrupt thing in British politics and you know it. The Tories argued they could get a great deal and look what we have. Plenty of other Tories are saying No Deal is in the national interest.

They just don't have the numbers to make a vote of no confidence count for anything. No one is going to want to hand them the reigns, so what's the point. Their chance to do damage is the parliamentary vote.

Well, it'll be a lack of balls that sees us into her deal then, if it does happen. It's the only scenario that leaves the Tories as an electable force, so on that basis I guess i should expect half of Labour to vote for it.

I believe she'll stay, but am positive her deal will not. I really don't know why you have such faith in her on this. Are you that desperate not to be wrong about all of this that you're blinding yourself to the most likely outcomes? As much as I wanted Corbyn to renew Labour, i had to accept that it just hasn't worked. What is it going to take with you and May? She's literally going to have to have her head on a pike outside parliament for you to think she's lost, by the sounds of it.

Yeah there have been some Lib Dems saying that as well but CT, there just isn't enough of them to get past Labour, the SNP, and the ERG.

Having said this, they seem to be pushing for this outcome also. To make it stick they need one of them to take the PM position. If they pull down Mays deal and replace it with nothing, thwy could lose everything. Although truthfully, many of them may prefer Remain to Mays deal.

She'll resign if her deal is voted down. It's her out. No way she'll have the stones to preside over a no deal outcome. If she resigns, we get no deal by JRM or the moderate Tories force through a public vote.

He 100% won't get an election. Although i did read yesterday that if enough Tories join a vote of no confidence in the government, combined with Labour and the other parties they can force one.

May overcomes fuck all. She keeps going with grim determination, I'll grant her that, but its not the same as overcoming, which suggests she will win out somehow. The only reason she is still PM is because the Tories need someone to be the fall guy for this.

I love this fabled PR drive CT keeps talking about. Who is going to lead that exactly? She's lost Gove, Johnson, Raab, Davis... Farage will come out of the woodwork as well. There is going to be hell on, CT. If the Remainers think they can pull off a second vote, she's fucked. The only chance she has, is continuing to convince them that it's her deal or no deal. Weirdly, they're the only ones who might save her. But they'd be fucking stupid to do so when a second vote is feasible.

https://twitter.com/BBCNormanS/status/1063072940743376897

I am not off to France 100% I have no immediate plans to leave, I just know I will if it becomes clear that the country is doomed.

Yep. No Deal gives the Tories no escape. May's Deal means they'll fudge their way out of this. Also, May's deal means Brexit will happen and I'm prepared to risk No Deal for a shot at Remain.

I'm not disputing that.

The only way to what? I'm not disregarding that other ways are possible, I'm just saying that if I can't have 'remain', I'd rather have 'No Deal' than 'May's Deal'. I'm not sure why this is bothering you so much ewerk It's not like I have the power to make it happen.