Rayvin

I don't know if I used the word deserve. The majority of people are stupid, and trump/orban/bolsonaro/brexit is what they choose. Although I guess you could argue that they deserve the consequences of their choice.

I mean external immigration. And I mean it in exactly the sense you're talking. If other EU countries are consistently taking in refugees and immigrants from external countries, then over time those people will be naturalised into the country in question, and then open to FOM. I mean, I have no idea how many of them would then bother moving after establishing their lives there, but I doubt the people on the other side of this argument care even slightly. Although I would say that people certainly did seem to have an issue with Polish and Romanian people entering the country, at least at one point. I believe that in the coming decade, in order to combat populism, the EU will start cracking down hard on border control and external immigration.

Well said. Benevolent dictatorship is the only viable option IMO

Also agree with this.

Sorry, just saw the edit - Honestly, I think we need to look at the social aspects of political divide. The centre actually already looks after things that most right wing crazies get worked up about, they just need to make it a lot more fucking visible. Actually engage in debate with the people leading the populism and show them up rather than no platforming the shit out of everyone and then wondering how people like Tommy Robinson can have a large following of people who think he's right about everything despite making no coherent arguments. I was thinking about this the other day. So much of this is tied into the culture of political correctness and the overstepping of policing of what people can and can't say (and whether they're right about the extent of it or not, people are fucking annoyed about it) that all we probably do need to win this in the short term is a centrist leader who comes out and stands up against the reactionary left rhetoric, makes a big show about protecting British values, investing in immigrant integration, promoting social things that are important to these people (without infringing on the actual rights of any minorities of course). The left would be after him or her with all guns, and the right would love them. They don't change anything but who cares, it's the narrative that matters. Longer term, honestly, I still think the EU has lost the battle on immigration - and I think the West needs to look at it properly. Rightly or wrongly, and it is wrongly, our countries are rejecting it.

I don't see the two things as mutually exclusive. They're certainly idiots for thinking that people like Trump and Farage aren't establishment in all but social philosophies.

Anti-establishment sentiment. That's why the experts, Obama, the forecasts and all the might of Remain ultimately failed. I'm tempted to even agree with CT that the spend was irrelevant - I mean Remain did spend more. A significant proportion, perhaps even the majority, of people who voted leave did so to kick the establishment as hard as they could. That narrative is repeating all over the world, even in countries like Brazil and Thailand. And yes, it's not lost on me that the people coming into power as a result are about as pro-establishment as it gets. But it is lost on the people voting for them. Populism is winning. And we're going to keep repeating this farcical situation, apparently across the world, until the centre wakes up to it. #goteamcentre

I believe in a mixed economy. Actually, no, i used to believe in that. Now i believe in any motherfucker that delivers remain, and failing that, the worst possible vision of the future so that people can fucking learn from it. But i already know the Tories will emerge unscathed from this so like I said, seriously fucking disillusioned.

Seriously fucking disillusioned.

I have actually, although not a public sector one. My point is that Neoliberalism is a lie because of shit like this. It's not true. They're aren't playing by the rules they claim to be. I'm not saying it's inherent in the model, just that the model is corrupted and abused. And whether it happens in socialism is irrelevant because 1) for the last fucking time, I'm not a socialist and 2) we arent living under socialism. All I'm doing is pointing out that they're hypocrites and making a mockery of the ideology they claim to worship. Stop getting so defensive just because you think im attacking your beloved centre. I said anyway, I'll take the centre happily now - corrupt, lying incompetence and all.

Fuck off. "Free Market", "Competition", "Efficiency" There's your fucking Neoliberalism. An elite fucking racket. An oligarchy. To think we criticise other countries for corruption.

Same as last year then.

Happy New Year lads. All the best.

I'm curious CT, are you posting this out of political interest in the country, or because this is what you think Corbyn wants to do to the UK despite literally no tangible evidence of it, meaning you're been utterly brainwashed by an insane and incoherent right wing press that would skull fuck you quite happily if there was a quick quid in it for them?

Merry Christmas lads.

We'll never hear the end of it from essembee...

Well i mean, If they stood any chance of winning sure. I wont get what i want, so really I'm saying I'm done with all this now. The only meaningful thing I've ever witnessed politically is a total catastrophe. Democracy shouldn't be allowed.

Women can be bosses too Quiff, you raging misogynist.

If it gets Remain, sure. If we're out by then, i wont even be paying attention.

That's pretty bleak from Rafa... I mean i get the underlying reason for saying it, but we're 15th atm. It's not that bad of a season so far.

If you believe people occupy eternally fixed positions on things then i guess that would be surprising. I'm gonna say once and for all actually - I don't give a shit what you guys think of my opinions, and i dont give a shit if i look stupid sometimes. I'm very comfortable looking at information and changing my view based on it, and saying as much. As insecure as I am in most aspects of life, i dont need validation on the internet as someone who is always right. I just want to improve my own understanding of things. That said, i think the following things were true for my previous position. 1 - i felt that there was no effective way for Labour to support a Remain movement without being crucified for it until recently. 2 - I was unaware of the sheer numbers of the membership that wanted to remain, and was dismayed that the leadership continues to ignore this. That was the moment Corbyn lost me as a sympathiser, a few weeks back. 3 - it is only over time, and as we draw nearer to Brexit, that I am more fully able to understand what it means. Mays deal being on the table is significant. 4 - I am now convinced that if Mays deal gets through, the Tories will get away with Brexit without terminal political blowback, and we'll be back to business as usual. At which point I am done with politics because it is a total and utter farce.

Congrats mate that's great news!

You can call me naive all you want. The simple truth is this - I am not unaware of your arguments. I don't even dispute the factual accuracy. I just can't come to the same conclusion after considering additional information based on how New Labour has operated since 2010, and furthermore, what i have read from Monbiot about the damage it has unintentionally done by adhering to an ideological philosophy adopted by Thatcher. You will not swing me on this argument by quoting facts that I already know, have considered, and have reached conclusions in full awareness of. All I am saying now, is that I don't care anymore because staying in the EU is worth more to me. On a personal level.

No, because Renton votes for the centre because he believes it's the best thing for people. I can't do that because i dont believe it. I can only vote for it selfishly. The Tories aren't offering Remain. If they were, i would.

As i said, I'm with you. I'm doing so for selfish reasons and believe that I will be harming vulnerable people as a result, but i just dont care anymore. What difference does it make to you why i choose it as long as i do. I'm choosing to vote like a cunt. You vote centre because you think it's best for people. That's fine. I'll be voting centre for myself, because i dont believe it is for the best for most people. Either way though, the effect is the same.