Rayvin

I am sure if we go back through my posts, this is actually my exact reason for choosing Corbyn at the time. So yes, fully agree on that. And yes, fully intended to include left leaning centre. Ultimately I had no issue with the way Labour came together under the Blairites to tackle this, and I recall that I used to be continuously annoyed with the LDs because in my view their supporters were generally also left wing, so there was a split in the left for no good reason. I don't actually believe this is true anymore, I think I had a fairly incomplete view of the political makeup of LD voters, but still. This was why I was so outraged they joined the Tories though. It was like they picked up 2 million left wing votes and delivered a right wing government with them. Anyway, yes - we indeed never will get PR. The fact that none of the politicians actually talk about it is damning, really.

This is a difficult one for me because I agree that a centre that actually gives a fuck is exactly where politics should be. I just don't think that's where we were. Also, I'd have more time for your views on this if you ever admitted you were wrong about the many, many things you have been wrong about.

We are where we are because no one was listening. The Tories rolled out ideological austerity and Labour waved it through. The two parties of the centre, creating the rise of Corbyn, the 'far right' (who always capitalise on economic disenfranchisement, to the point where I recall the BNP actually saying that this was their strategy in general, rather than winning people over in elections), and Brexit. They pushed the lefties to the left, and the loonies to the right. This much has been totally inevitable for a political structure that really just did not give a fuck and thought that all it had to do was turn up to win. As for where we go from here, it has to be PR IMO. The country is polarised as fuck but I still believe that there is an overall majority left wing consensus. Until we lose Scotland anyway.

Can't quite bring myself to say I regret voting for Corbyn since the alternatives were so dismal, but you have to accept something that you really haven't ever managed to - the centre, in entirely, was fucking shit. Completely, unbelievably, fucking shit. I've never lived through a period, while I retained any political awareness at least, where the centre wasn't in control - so choosing Corbyn made total sense to me; and honestly, Brexit aside, still would. The only reason he's lost me is Brexit. If not for that, I could handle the generally rubbish way he conducts himself because he seems able to turn it on in the run ups to GEs. So let's not pretend it was all sunshine and roses and that the centre had no hand in getting us here. It had the biggest fucking hand. A lot of what has followed the referendum is on Corbyn for absolute certain, but he had fuck all to do with why it happened unless you believe that 66% of Labour voters going Remain was too low, and that the party should instead of had higher numbers than both the LDs (68%) and the Greens (70%), both middle class as fuck. Don't say you weren't warned about the fucking centre either.

Gloom, as a Jewish man do you feel under threat from hard left thugs - am I just not seeing this somehow? I'm curious as to how exactly a few anti-Zionist conspiracy nutters are actually impacting anything. I know it's a slippery slope etc.

Obviously I feel that it's a bullshit narrative pulled out of almost thin air to discredit Corbyn at a time when very little else was working. Doesn't mean it shouldn't have been stamped out as a lipservice move as any other political party would do.

We have a public just barely able to force itself to keep a passing interest in Brexit, the biggest political issue this country has faced in decades. Need I go on? EDIT - I will add, to take the edge off, that no one seems to care about anyone.

Most importantly it just shouldn't be an issue in Labour. It should have just been shut the fuck down since it was the only thing the Tories really had on Labour that would stick. I don't personally believe many in the public genuinely care about it, but the MPs and politicians really seem to.

Corbyn's statement is of course, more of the same stuff he always says. I fucking hate everyone. The end.

Are they getting a backlash? I wouldn't actually have thought anyone would be sad to see them go truthfully, Berger and Umunna have just been a pain in Corbyn's side for months. I'm not even fully aware of who the others are, though Leslie and Smith sound vaguely familiar.

Umunna is right that politics is broken, but is he really the man to turn it around? Does he actually think that 'a new party' will somehow fix this? Might end up being another step towards PR though, I guess.

Reading what they're saying mind... its all total shite so far. "The world is more complicated that oppressors and oppressed". Aye it may well be, but that's still a big fucking part of it. Not that you would expect any middle of the road MPs to know that. Getting very clear reminders of why the centre has had its ass handed to it at every turn over the past few years. Grim to think this delusional nonsense is once again 'my team' ...

If they all continue to vote the right way then it doesn't even matter. Mostly symbolic. I dont see any route for them back into serious power from here though. Maybe they hope to pick up a few others.

I would have been appalled by this some time ago but honestly don't see what choice Corbyn is leaving anyone on the Remain side now.

An observation - a few years back, Essembee was ridiculed on here (and indeed accused of being a mackem) such was his devotion to criticism of Sunderland and his pulling up of fairly irrational points to throw at them. I mean we all liked a dig but there were limits. These days, I would venture that Essembee is an almost respected member of the community in terms of his contributions (Sorry Essembee, but you can't have not been aware of this perception). Is this because he has raised his game as a poster? No, I don't think so. It's because Sunderland have lowered themselves to the points where the 'limits' have expanded, and now even the crazy shit Essembee comes out with seems acceptable when put alongside paedo players, consecutive relegations, spending millions on players who don't play for them, an inability to fill their seats with anything other than excrement, and hugely delusional visions of where they are as a club compared to the reality of their situation. Sunderland have become the club Essembee always believed they were. He's like some kind of mad bastard prophet.

Ok so, what does today's fiasco mean for Brexit? Any ideas? May is fucked. That one looks solidly predictable.

It's hilarious that this is actually his position

I really hope CT has the stones to come back here, hold his hands up and say he was fucking wrong. I mean it's going to be impossible to have any respect for him otherwise (I know). This has been such a calamitous shit show from start to finish, and the Tories have been and remain a disgrace - as everyone has said for years.

He's been conspicuously absent for a while now. You just know that if May gets her deal through he'll be all over the place again.

Is none of this being reported in the leave newspapers? I mean i assume it isnt but how can even the Mail be so irresponsible...

He should have given it up assuming he was a fit and healthy youngster - but you can be damn well sure he now won't next time Not that he likely would've anyway.

Think I'm with Quiff on that. Shaming people into giving up their seat isn't on really I once had a woman (non pregnant, about my age + maybe 5) try to shame me into giving up my seat on a train after an 8 hour day in retail on my feet. No fucking way. Having said that, i always give up seats to old people and tbh if it's a nearly full bus or train I'll just stand anyway for short runs.

Bingo. Although surely any attempt to interfere would be neocolonialist. So they're damned either way IMO.

I love how he has basically accepted everything Stevie just said as true and resorted to attacks on the basis of fucking benefits You're thinking of Sunderland mate, Newcastle is middle class as fuck

Just take it on trust mate, that he is not running the club 'as a business' at least in terms of what you think that means. He takes money out of the club, has tanked our commercial revenue, and risks relegation almost every season by failing to invest, which costs him more in the long run. He's a fucking pillock.