Rayvin

I love how, 2 years on, everyone still fucking hates each other Has the country been this divided about anything in living memory?

No no, it ain't dead yet. It should have been dead ages ago and it keeps soldiering on. The Tories are committed CT.

Wtf? This is just cos Macron said what he did?

I genuinely think NS is a left winger and his heart is in the right place. A lexiteer I guess. I don't believe his views on Brexit will be motivated by racism. Would be curious what they are I guess but I can think of other reasons.

What a bunch of ungrateful cunts we are. I wonder if i will ever lose the feeling of shame at being British that seems to have crept into me permanently over this. We've voted ourselves into total irrelevance and economic pain. And some of us are so insecure about themselves that they're unable to be critical of the situation as 'being right' is more important than reality. It's like we're a country of 5 year olds.

So about as many as people who live in Newcastle.

I assure you that the answer to that would have been 'through God'.

It's not that someone did it, there will always be brainless narcissists around, it's that it made national media (well, the guardian at least). Now there'll be more of them over time and it'll eventually come to be hailed as an inspirational moment when feminism finally stood up and said no to sexy knickers.

He'll have died happy though, a martyr to his cause. People are weird.

Having said this, if women in this country dont have full human rights then that is disgraceful, and Marks and Spencer should urgently address that...

Yeah, saw that. It's pathetic but then that's the status quo all over the place these days. Presumably it's the sex negatives.

I didn't say they had anything of substance. I said that there are so many of them now, and so little desire amongst them to listen to reason, that I'm struggling to think what we can possibly do about them. Beyond what we've already done, which is point out the realities, and which has not worked, what do you propose?

Yep, I agree, but we've lost the fucking argument. We just have. It doesn't make sense, it's based on fucking nothing, but we need a change of narrative to counter it because 'everything is fine, stop overreacting' isn't working against irrational people.

Aye but nationalism has been intelligently wielded by the far right with the argument that a 'nationalist' can be someone of any colour, who wants what is best for the country. Unlike a racist.

I honestly think we have to back away from this argument - and by 'we', I mean the rational people in society. Whether we're right in our views on it or not, we've clearly lost the argument for now at least. Continuing to force this issue (and I do think that there are some valid concerns from 'the other side' on this, especially concerning the government's ongoing failure to integrate people into society, which appears to consist of relying on the children of immigrants to be 'normalised' by TV and school) is only making the centre look apathetic to the concerns of the lower middle and working classes, and they no longer trust the establishment voices above the right wing outlets and the crazies. I wish the EU itself would understand that immigration has just been too much for some people, and that the chance they had to shape the narrative around it has been lost. There's too much at stake across Europe now with the rise of the far right everywhere, and the longer they fail to address it, the harder they'll have to be when they finally do act on it.

Well that's unquestionably true for some of them and we see that day in, day out on here. But maybe if they were more used to hearing it...!

Regarding Corbyn, I dont understand what any of these politicians are gaining from delusional comments like that. Why bother claiming something so patently untrue. Why not just treat the public like fucking adults and tell them the truth?

Sounds like good news, let's re-run it then.

I wouldn't worry about it, he'll have resigned in a couple of days.

The Guardian has a graphic depicting the different factions and how they might vote. It's interactive as well so CT can move the sliders to show us how she's going to have unanimous support in the end. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactive/2018/nov/15/can-you-get-mays-brexit-deal-through-parliament I think they're right with a lot of it. Forgot Kate Hoey rejected the deal as well.

CT and May will be the last ones standing on this deal in the end.

It's not her personal credibility that is being voted on though, it's the deal. She isn't the next Thatcher man, she cant strong arm this through by force of will. The deal will be voted for or against based on its merits and background political fear about alternatives. That's it. No one is going to vote for it because they think May is a strong leader.

That is a long way from the most corrupt thing in British politics and you know it. The Tories argued they could get a great deal and look what we have. Plenty of other Tories are saying No Deal is in the national interest.

They just don't have the numbers to make a vote of no confidence count for anything. No one is going to want to hand them the reigns, so what's the point. Their chance to do damage is the parliamentary vote.

Well, it'll be a lack of balls that sees us into her deal then, if it does happen. It's the only scenario that leaves the Tories as an electable force, so on that basis I guess i should expect half of Labour to vote for it.