Rayvin

Well i mean, If they stood any chance of winning sure. I wont get what i want, so really I'm saying I'm done with all this now. The only meaningful thing I've ever witnessed politically is a total catastrophe. Democracy shouldn't be allowed.

Women can be bosses too Quiff, you raging misogynist.

If it gets Remain, sure. If we're out by then, i wont even be paying attention.

That's pretty bleak from Rafa... I mean i get the underlying reason for saying it, but we're 15th atm. It's not that bad of a season so far.

If you believe people occupy eternally fixed positions on things then i guess that would be surprising. I'm gonna say once and for all actually - I don't give a shit what you guys think of my opinions, and i dont give a shit if i look stupid sometimes. I'm very comfortable looking at information and changing my view based on it, and saying as much. As insecure as I am in most aspects of life, i dont need validation on the internet as someone who is always right. I just want to improve my own understanding of things. That said, i think the following things were true for my previous position. 1 - i felt that there was no effective way for Labour to support a Remain movement without being crucified for it until recently. 2 - I was unaware of the sheer numbers of the membership that wanted to remain, and was dismayed that the leadership continues to ignore this. That was the moment Corbyn lost me as a sympathiser, a few weeks back. 3 - it is only over time, and as we draw nearer to Brexit, that I am more fully able to understand what it means. Mays deal being on the table is significant. 4 - I am now convinced that if Mays deal gets through, the Tories will get away with Brexit without terminal political blowback, and we'll be back to business as usual. At which point I am done with politics because it is a total and utter farce.

Congrats mate that's great news!

You can call me naive all you want. The simple truth is this - I am not unaware of your arguments. I don't even dispute the factual accuracy. I just can't come to the same conclusion after considering additional information based on how New Labour has operated since 2010, and furthermore, what i have read from Monbiot about the damage it has unintentionally done by adhering to an ideological philosophy adopted by Thatcher. You will not swing me on this argument by quoting facts that I already know, have considered, and have reached conclusions in full awareness of. All I am saying now, is that I don't care anymore because staying in the EU is worth more to me. On a personal level.

No, because Renton votes for the centre because he believes it's the best thing for people. I can't do that because i dont believe it. I can only vote for it selfishly. The Tories aren't offering Remain. If they were, i would.

As i said, I'm with you. I'm doing so for selfish reasons and believe that I will be harming vulnerable people as a result, but i just dont care anymore. What difference does it make to you why i choose it as long as i do. I'm choosing to vote like a cunt. You vote centre because you think it's best for people. That's fine. I'll be voting centre for myself, because i dont believe it is for the best for most people. Either way though, the effect is the same.

They ceded the narrative and enabled the conditions. And I'm including the Tories under Cameron as 'centrists' as well since they and Labour were basically policy twins at that time.

I have continually stated that I thought they were great when they were in power - as in, me at that time was a fully committed Blairite. Subsequently, I observed that they took insufficient action to address worrying underlying trends in society (benefit of hindsight though), but more than anything, observed that they backed austerity. That's why they lost me. I've said it a million times. The problem with them now is that they're toxic to both sides. Which again, is why I have said before that the left needs a tilt at power to pull the centreground somewhere less right wing, before ideally, the centrists come back to power. Or alternatively, we see a rethought, radical centrism come forward and listen, addressing people's grievances with moderation. Instead, they've sat wringing their hands over 'how crazy everything has gotten', failing to take any responsibility for the patently obvious fact that, given we spent 30 years as centrists, that the current problem is squarely THEIR fault. It happened on THEIR watch. They are as intransigent and useless as Corbyn, but without any vision on top of that. However, they back Remain - and that's all I care about right now.

As usual, at no point have I ever been critical of the left wing things New Labour did.

I just don't care anymore. The paradox is that many of the people I feel need the left are actively voting against it, and at some point you just have to hold your hands up and say 'fuck it, I'm going to look out for myself on this one'. And if that means the centrists, and perpetuation of norms which will ultimately hit the working and under classes hardest... then so be it. Better than those same groups underpinning a far right revolution. It's pointless, it's like a macrocosm of issues with an individual. If someone keeps harming themselves personally, you can try to intervene, you can try to help them, but nothing is going to change the fact that the individual in question isn't going to get out of their mess until they decide to do so themselves. Once the poor and stupid decide to help themselves, I'll be right there voting with them. Until then, I'm voting for myself while they vote for mass suicide. So yes, I hope his fucking stupid position does cost him the leadership.

Serious blowback to Corbyn from his moronic statement.

$14m is worryingly impressive until you realise they need $1bn. Can almost see Ashley throwing a few million at it as long as het gets to adorn the thing with sports direct advertising...

Fuck it. Bring back the centre. I don't care about the greater good, the poor, the left behind anymore. I'm done. Corbyn out. Tories out. Chinless wankers of the centre, in.

Has Pardew just given up on management for now then? Been well over a year since his last gig hasnt it?

Did you open the crackers early this year or something...

Thatcher literally created the 'underclass'. I mean, that's a strong fucking statement Renton. She destroyed the social fabric of the country for corporate gain. I will concede that, as this was her intent, she was competent at least.

Oh whatever CT. If this makes you feel better about yourself in your vote, then you go on believing it. So ignoring the point about this being an international collapse of the centre, which I will assume means you've conceded as true, you're now asking me how the centre can do anything. Well, they could have started by actually trying to fucking understand anything about Brexit and the movement behind Corbyn. The fact that both things caught them so fucking cold, shows how utterly out of touch they were. Corbyn is clearly not going to be around long, so maybe a few centrists could start establishing a platform that addresses the concerns people have when this comes about. We can't go back to how things were. The world changed, the centre needs to catch up. Corbyn clearly isn't the answer in terms of politicaly viability, but his approach even on things like immigration, is fucking worlds further towards addressing people's concerns than anything the centre has spat out in decades. But yes, he's polling terribly. Quick, let's see if we can get some handsome young, ambitious politician to go in there and smooth things over with some more classic centrism. The French are absolutely loving that. 5 weeks of utter chaos now is it?

Riiiiight. We're enabling Trump by having no power whatsoever. In the UK, you could maybe make that argument. It'd be a bad one, but you could make it. In the US, the left had no power at all - the centrists lost to Trump my friend. Least popular president in history, at the time of being elected, and they still lost to him. Good grief man, we're doomed to repeat the same mistakes all over again if you don't wake up. What about Macron? The collapse of the centre elsewhere in Europe? The rise of the right in centrist Germany? I know you fucking hate Corbyn, but if you want this to stop you need to reform the centre. Not the left. Also, btw, I never shifted goalposts. I admitted I was wrong about Corbyn being the answer as an individual. My positions remain the same otherwise.

Also not sure why every other political party gets a free ride. Why haven't the LDs picked up? They're pretty fucking centrist. Labour is holding strong with the people who were always voting for it. The Tories are being propped up by fucking morons who we have to cater to all the time with this centrist bollocks. I wouldn't change anything, no. I wrote two or three years ago that my view was that the left had to dig its heels in and hold its nose until eventually, people had to choose it. And I suspect it will. Come hell or high water, it needs to dig in. If I could be convinced that the centre could be trusted not to dump austerities, Brexits, and Donald Trumps onto the world, then maybe I'd think otherwise.

That won't happen because the country was wrecked pre-Corbyn, in my view. His ability to manage the aftermath of the wreckage is poor to non-existent, but the centre wrecked the world. Not even just the UK. The world.

Yawn.

Yougov always seems to be the poll most endorsing of left wing positions IMO. Generally the most pro Labour one. Although i might just think that because it was the only one to get ahead of Theresa May's mauling at the last GE.