Rayvin

Don't quite get the logic of this statement mind. Why should we have been able to withstand it? It's not like it was an ordinary event.

Depends what you mean by withstand I guess. But this affected most of the world, were they all overspending? Was everyone's debt too high? It was at the level it was because it was good for growth and social development. Then the Americans and bankers triggered a global collapse and everyone suffered.

@NJS I'm afraid that's exactly how I see it as well. They saw it as an opportunity to reduce the size of the state, so they went about doing it. And austerity cost us a quicker recovery. Not gonna say they were punishing the poor although that was the consequence. But they weren't concerned about them either.

We weren't. We were at historically appropriate levels of debt, lower than Major's last government in fact:

Don't think there's any heroes coming..

I don't understand how this myth about Labour bankrupting the country continues to prevail. Have you actually looked into it? It was a global. economic. crash... Global. New Labour's reach must have been incredible. And the Tories have made it worse with austerity which was a proven failure, and which they've now attempted to abandon.

They'd get an immediate boost if they came out for Remain as well. Think PL is right about the hard-core 40% who vote Tory to ensure Brexit though.

I don't understand how people continue to believe the Tories are strong on the economy. Where is this information coming from exactly? Who is saying that they are? I'm not even sure I've heard the Tories themselves come out with that recently...

In a democracy, how can it not be a failure of politicians? Even if you take the line that the right wing media whips people up into a frenzy, the politicians have it in their power to force factual accuracy and severe penalties on these outlets. They just choose not to because sometimes, the outlets are backing them. Politicians can choose to educate people about politics at school level. They choose not to. Politicians can choose to reduce the income inequality gap - they choose not to. Yes, it's a failure of fucking politicians.

I don't know if I used the word deserve. The majority of people are stupid, and trump/orban/bolsonaro/brexit is what they choose. Although I guess you could argue that they deserve the consequences of their choice.

I mean external immigration. And I mean it in exactly the sense you're talking. If other EU countries are consistently taking in refugees and immigrants from external countries, then over time those people will be naturalised into the country in question, and then open to FOM. I mean, I have no idea how many of them would then bother moving after establishing their lives there, but I doubt the people on the other side of this argument care even slightly. Although I would say that people certainly did seem to have an issue with Polish and Romanian people entering the country, at least at one point. I believe that in the coming decade, in order to combat populism, the EU will start cracking down hard on border control and external immigration.

Well said. Benevolent dictatorship is the only viable option IMO

Also agree with this.

Sorry, just saw the edit - Honestly, I think we need to look at the social aspects of political divide. The centre actually already looks after things that most right wing crazies get worked up about, they just need to make it a lot more fucking visible. Actually engage in debate with the people leading the populism and show them up rather than no platforming the shit out of everyone and then wondering how people like Tommy Robinson can have a large following of people who think he's right about everything despite making no coherent arguments. I was thinking about this the other day. So much of this is tied into the culture of political correctness and the overstepping of policing of what people can and can't say (and whether they're right about the extent of it or not, people are fucking annoyed about it) that all we probably do need to win this in the short term is a centrist leader who comes out and stands up against the reactionary left rhetoric, makes a big show about protecting British values, investing in immigrant integration, promoting social things that are important to these people (without infringing on the actual rights of any minorities of course). The left would be after him or her with all guns, and the right would love them. They don't change anything but who cares, it's the narrative that matters. Longer term, honestly, I still think the EU has lost the battle on immigration - and I think the West needs to look at it properly. Rightly or wrongly, and it is wrongly, our countries are rejecting it.

I don't see the two things as mutually exclusive. They're certainly idiots for thinking that people like Trump and Farage aren't establishment in all but social philosophies.

Anti-establishment sentiment. That's why the experts, Obama, the forecasts and all the might of Remain ultimately failed. I'm tempted to even agree with CT that the spend was irrelevant - I mean Remain did spend more. A significant proportion, perhaps even the majority, of people who voted leave did so to kick the establishment as hard as they could. That narrative is repeating all over the world, even in countries like Brazil and Thailand. And yes, it's not lost on me that the people coming into power as a result are about as pro-establishment as it gets. But it is lost on the people voting for them. Populism is winning. And we're going to keep repeating this farcical situation, apparently across the world, until the centre wakes up to it. #goteamcentre

I believe in a mixed economy. Actually, no, i used to believe in that. Now i believe in any motherfucker that delivers remain, and failing that, the worst possible vision of the future so that people can fucking learn from it. But i already know the Tories will emerge unscathed from this so like I said, seriously fucking disillusioned.

Seriously fucking disillusioned.

I have actually, although not a public sector one. My point is that Neoliberalism is a lie because of shit like this. It's not true. They're aren't playing by the rules they claim to be. I'm not saying it's inherent in the model, just that the model is corrupted and abused. And whether it happens in socialism is irrelevant because 1) for the last fucking time, I'm not a socialist and 2) we arent living under socialism. All I'm doing is pointing out that they're hypocrites and making a mockery of the ideology they claim to worship. Stop getting so defensive just because you think im attacking your beloved centre. I said anyway, I'll take the centre happily now - corrupt, lying incompetence and all.

Fuck off. "Free Market", "Competition", "Efficiency" There's your fucking Neoliberalism. An elite fucking racket. An oligarchy. To think we criticise other countries for corruption.

Same as last year then.

Happy New Year lads. All the best.

I'm curious CT, are you posting this out of political interest in the country, or because this is what you think Corbyn wants to do to the UK despite literally no tangible evidence of it, meaning you're been utterly brainwashed by an insane and incoherent right wing press that would skull fuck you quite happily if there was a quick quid in it for them?

Merry Christmas lads.

We'll never hear the end of it from essembee...