Rayvin

Stolen from David Mitchell though.

IMO this proves democracy is barely worth proceeding with in general. What's the point if no one cares, everyone is uninformed, and just vote the way the papers and wider social trends tell them to? It's a total farce.

I am actually getting close to putting CT on ignore because he isn't even trying to make coherent points anymore, it's just shameless attempts at winding everyone up (I know that some people feel it was ever thus, but it's more blatant now than at any point I can recall). The main reason I haven't is because everyone else keeps responding to him and it'll disrupt my reading of the thread. Think Alex is right though - this is CT admitting he's wrong. Depressingly.

Indeed. Even if you consider that this is yet another jumped up media outrage, which I of course do, Trump wedging himself into the middle of it clearly shows his love of division.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/01/22/rafa-benitez-will-leave-newcastle-summer-unless-club-sign-new/ To leave unless we sign two players this window, apparently.

I really don't feel I've changed overly

Can you imagine if the lad holding the shotgun actually fired it? He'd go flying

I've seen the exchange between gloom and trooper play out on RTG almost every time i check the place, spanning multiple threads, offering people out, tribalism emerging, etc. How pleasing it is to see a clear example of how much better people on here are than that lot, that it's done and dusted in 3 posts, mutual respect preserved. Both positions deserve respect.

Your first point suggests we need a second vote. Ultimately though, based on what you're saying, she's putting party above country. Cool, just so we're all in agreement on that. The traitorous bitch.

Yeah but given that there was almost certainly no majority for either of those across the country, unless you believe that every single leaver wanted to end FOM, why is she pursuing it? It's undemocratic.

Why is she so fucking determined to have this version of brexit? Why?

The longer we leave it, the more leavers die off. Maybe we should go for an extension and just fuck around for another 2 years like the Tories have been doing anyway.

Gonna add as well that the leave vote in areas lik Sunderland was heavily buoyed by non voters. Also, the GE preceding the referendum, UKIP had 4 million votes. And it was the Tories who were so concerned about this that they had a referendum, not Labour. There are some working class right wingers who voted Leave such as yourself CT, but those people by and large werent voting Labour. I know some working class left wingers who did voted out, but they're generally at what you would consider to be the 'far' end of left wing politics.

This is CT's "yeah but i was right, its just that Labour fucked it up" narrative.

An EU diplomat on the state of the country: “I was in Brussels last week and no one can understand what has happened to Britain,” said one. “It’s a country looked up to and respected for its ability to find a compromise, to be the one in the meeting with a calm analysis and a gift for finding solutions to problems. It is the country to which people turn for answers. “But this no longer seems to be about details, the length of the backstop drafts or texts, but about ideology. It is very deep, passionate and irrational.”

I have never found it so easy to dismiss everything CT is saying as desperate attempts to wind people up. And it really is desperate this time. Anyway, gloom made a point earlier about no deal and the backing it would get. I think at this point people might still be fairly poorly informed on what it might entail. A campaign pre referendum would give us an opportunity to 'project fear' the issue.

Yep. Like i said earlier - shotguns and toddlers. The only way they'll learn.

I'm over it, i just want to remain. Neoliberalism isnt hurting me anyway.

It doesnt change anything material about Brexit anyway even if he has. If we got an election then maybe but with his current policy position even i wouldn't vote for him so he's fucked anyway on that front.

No one would believe him anyway tbf. The press would still trash him.

Ah so you mean its a strategic failure from a voter attraction position, not that they will actually vote for any of the shit shes saying. Sorry yeah, i guess he's trying to show strength or something but unity might be a better look atm.

His position is mirrored by the LDs and SNP. So whether a fool or not, he has company.

Yeah but as I said, the Lib Dems have ruled out backing him on another No Confidence motion, so he'd need to carry another 10 or so Tories over as well. And I have a feeling the SNP may well say the same thing.

How? The smaller parties aren't going to vote for it, they confirmed as much today. Labour can't make it happen on its own. Unless you think May will table one.

The Guardian's overall narrative at the moment seems to be that we have to accept we're leaving and try to tweak the deal. Interesting position tbh, I would've thought it was all to fight for.