Rayvin

Would it fly though? I mean if Corbyn sticks to his guns about Labour's policies then it's not really a 'win' for May, is it? And seriously, she must be getting fucked off with a good number of Tories by now. Why she would want to do that pack of cunts any favours is beyond me. So Corbyn comes out of the meeting and says they couldn't agree anything, while simultaneously saying that a People's Vote on her deal would be something he would support - so his standing position. I don't see how she successfully pins No Deal on him for that position. That's a really fair position from Labour given the impasse in parliament. Also I note that Barclay just said this: The Lib Dem MP Wera Hobhouse goes next. Q: If a confirmatory referendum were attached to the PM’s deal, would you vote against it? Barclay says there are no preconditions to the talks with Labour. But he says a second referendum would prolong uncertainty, and could take the UK back to the starting point. He goes on: But we will need to look at this.

Are the Tories competent enough for this? But then, is Corbyn competent enough to avoid it... What kind of trap though, I'm struggling to think of one short of trying to blame the whole thing on him if we crash out with No Deal. Which would support the majority votes cast by the cabinet now I think about it.

I figured I would have been. If it had happened then do you think we would have had a soft Brexit? Or any chance of PV2? I do concede incidentally that your ability to remember random things people have said on here over the years is unparalleled

In defence of KCG's point, you'd have a hard time finding anyone who thinks that anything going on in Parliament now is "sane".

I'm going to add, because I'm a realist, that I also half expect Corbyn to come out of that meeting having somehow basically agreed to everything May wanted while celebrating having extracted concessions on some manner of public transport issue.

How did he break America exactly? I remember a few months ago realising that he had somehow managed this and just being stunned.

Corbyn will be counting on being able to rally people behind Labour as he did last time. I don't think polls fall into his strategy much - so I do understand why he takes the approach you've noted. I don't think it will have quite the same effect this time though, largely because I think circumstances have changed in terms of how Labour is viewed - but that said, I do think most of the damage done to them in recent times has been from Remainers being angry, and if he pulls the rabbit out of the hat I think they would stop finding reasons not to support Labour. I dunno tbh. I genuinely think Labour's "strategy" was not to nail it's colours to the mast until the Tories gave it something to oppose. May's deal did this, it was universally hated, and so Labour started making noises about credible alternatives. I do think it was important not to come out as the party of Remain early on though - if they did that, the right wing press would be full of talk about them sabotaging Brexit. As it is, they've let the Tories disintegrate in front of the eyes of the nation, and have a reasonably compelling story behind their soft Brexit move, on the one hand putting forward that it's the best option for people and the economy, and on the other hand sort of positioning themselves in a way that it looks like they had no choice but to act rather than trying to drive the process.

I think there is a workable angle here though. What May is looking for, I feel, is for Labour to take a theoretically equal share of the blame for whatever outcome is on offer. If Corbyn accepts that, and can use it to get Labour's options, then I would say it's worth it. Both parties get punished by the electorate, although given how fucking close we would have come to No Deal I think Labour would get some love from Remainers.

Out of interest, if Corbyn somehow pulls Norway or PV2 out of the bag, does that mean he gets a little slack on here? Don't answer, I already know. Curious though that his really really fucking really long game approach might actually work in the end. He let the Tories run out of rope and now May is at his door.

It's a political loss for the county that it IMO deserves, but its not a loss to individuals.

There needs to be a narrative to fix this.

Mostly because it probably won't win and gives the whole thing more political legitimacy. Not that I don't basically agree with you, just don't know if that can be sold...

Why can't it just be Remain vs May's Deal, and if May's Deal wins, May vs No Deal?

Remain. No Deal, May's Deal, Remain.

He will. She will say no. The farce will continue.

And the only counter to this will be an alliance of the left and the centre. As fucking usual. The left better get good terms this time.

Well I meant now, before No Deal. After it, if it comes to pass, sure, let's burn the fuckers with it.

At this point, everyone. We need a soft Brexit. I agree with you that we won't see widespread unrest even if we revoke, but the damage it will do will be significant nonetheless. People are already disillusioned as fuck.

This is true. We need to compromise and then rejoin at a later date.

I'm starting to wonder if the reality is that Parliament does actually represent the country. Totally divided and unable to make peace on anything. It's hard to argue that this isn't exactly where we are as a country. And it's as much because of the intransigence of the Remainers as it is of the Leavers. What happens if we get a GE and it returns the same issue? It would have to be a people's vote then. What happens if it's another tight vote (say it went for Remain)? How do we reconcile? I can't quite believe what the Tories have actually managed to do here, it's a fuck up of legendary proportions. Epoch defining.

Another vote gives political legitimacy to remain. And I'm sure many people would accept that just to get over all this.

Well we have Wednesday. Surely it's not beyond them to just fucking talk to each other and see if they have the numbers.

Are you serious? Why in fuck did the independents vote it down. And Lucas?!?! What in shit is wrong with this people indeed.

I actually do get ewerks' point in terms of the practicalities. Soft brexit is basically strategically pointless. The political situation surrounding us make it a viable choice though.

This for me.