Rayvin

They cheered one of them tbf.

I mean, we haven't won a trophy in 50 years so I could see them making an argument there with some success I have to admit like, I haven't really had an issue with City winning the league since the other clubs are at least making a go of it, but that result against Watford in the FA Cup.. Idk man, if that was ever us winning 6-0 I think i would have started to feel a bit embarassed about it. I said recently in another thread that all your money makes it hard to have strong feelings about you as a club, positive or negative. If it went the same way for us, I think it would be a disconnect from what i believe the personality of the club to be. That said, I believe that personality is summarised as one of "glorious failure" so perhaps any success would be a disconnect...

Tbf I guess i answered a slightly different question to the one you posed initially. Yes, they do need to tackle the actual issues at the same time. In fact I think that would create a much more compelling vision for remain anyway.

I figure they would address those things in the campaign leading up to the vote. This would just be for justifying the actual referendum. But either way, if i can come up with that in 5 mins, Labour high command should be able to put something solid together.

I mean, I'm not sitting here with baited breath, but I do feel that this is all pretty encouraging so far. If it falls through, it falls through - I'm not going to feel embarassed about having hoped for the best though.

Why can't we address those and stay in the EU? The narrative journey really isn't that difficult: "You voted Leave for a variety of reasons, largely coming from a decade of austerity and national mismanagement by the Tories. We understand that you feel that you have not been listened to or represented within politics. To that end, while Labour campaigned for remaining in the EU, we also sought to understand the reasons behind why many of you would choose to leave. Following the vote, we committed to work with the government where possible to ensure that Brexit could be carried out in a way that honoured the vote but did not harm the lives and interests of British people. Unfortunately, the Tory government attempted to force the country into an extreme and damaging Brexit arrangement, which would have negatively impacted upon people's jobs and families. The government has regrettably left us no choice but to call for a second vote, as we do not trust the competence or the stability of the Tory party to oversee and decide upon something of the utmost national importance. It is now clear that they are seeking only to preserve themselves politically. As such, the people must once again decide on what they wish to pursue, and Labour will firmly back the outcome, whatever it may be." Would take him about 1 minute to say.

Labour's pummeling at the European elections was obvious and inevitable, and he published an article calling out "Ultra Remainers" as betraying the project and enboldening the far right. He's another one of these people who seems to consistently believe that Leave voters are a bigger proportion of the Labour voting base than Remain voters. They're not. They never were. If that means there is now a disconnect between the people Labour thinks it speaks for, and those who vote for it, then that's just how it is. But Labour hasn't betrayed those people - those people have betrayed themselves.

We haven't been this far along before though, as far as I can tell?

I don't know anything about her beyond what I've just read in Owen Jones' article. What is actually wrong with her? Incidentally, I take Owen's begrudging support for Remain as a good sign. He appears to be closely tied to the party to the point where I would suggest he's more mouthpiece than journalist.

Corbyn? I dunno, who?

Have to admit, I'm checking quite regularly. Despite the fact that we've all been told a number of different time frames, with the most optimistic that I can recall being Friday...

Feels like the gambit to force Labour into backing a second referendum has won the day. Corbyn seems to have basically endorsed the position now. In part I think we've also been helped by Farage - the prospect of coming up with some kind of deal has been torn apart from both sides, so now Labour can't deny that it's No Deal or No Brexit. The question from here I think is how firmly and visibly they're going to back this. If Corbyn just comes out and says "yeah ok, second referendum on any vote but let's talk about domestic policy" then he may as well not bother. It needs to be loud and furious - "The Tories are trying to take us out with no deal to the detriment of the entire country, and it is imperative that we get a second vote so that we can stop this damage before it is too late - the Labour Party will immediately begin campaigning for this outcome". I suspect it'll be somewhere between the two, but I hope it's closer to the latter..

If he has an investment portfolio, the point of it will be to 'invest and grow', unlike Ashley whose primary motivation beyond getting a bit of love initially was to advertise sports direct. Also, he was going to buy Liverpool using £1.25bn from his own backers. So I think we could roughly state that the level of money he has available to throw at the project after the sale is anything up to about £1bn.

Also not sure what the difference is between Arab money and British or Chinese money if he isn't actually one of the royal family. His investment portfolio might be totally benign.

US energy department rebrands fossil fuels as 'molecules of freedom' https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/may/29/energy-department-molecules-freedom-fossil-fuel-rebranding

I've seen that guy a few times and if he's taking the piss out of them, he's bloody good. I think he's a legit fan tbh...

Possibly all that deserves it's own thread, surely? Although the risk then is the deal falls through and we're left with a sad reminder of our crushed hopes and dreams

I think the EU is going to have to tackle that point with or without us, but it's not going to do it quickly enough. Also, I think a pivot towards a reform argument would be challenging in the short term as hardly anyone knows what they would reform, and people are sick of talking about this now. I would prefer that Labour back Remain but do so with promises of genuine reform within the country following their election in the end, but that they need the national stability that remain would offer to do so. Contrast that with the Tory vision, which is nothing more than a tax haven with delusions of grandeur - I mean, they have no vision. Strongarm remain through, and then immediately, immediately, push back to domestic issues. The Tories won't be able to respond quick enough as they'll be all over the place, a GE follows, and Labour sweep in with the backing of a middle class that is grateful to them for having averted a crisis, and which has bought into their narrative about a better future off the back of Remaining.

I fucking hope one of them sees that and posts it over there

Glad to see you're ok mate

Remaining doesn't make the situation worse though, which makes it better than brexit. It brings us back to where we were. From there, as I said earlier, a Corbyn style government can do a lot of good. I'm more than ready to go back to Labour and vote for him for all his other policies, but I am not prepared to weaken the country first.

I have every sympathy with them but they're going to solve jack shit with brexit. There's having sympathy with people and there's enabling delusions...

I still maintain that Ashley, surely, can't wait to see the back of us.

Surely that just underlines my point. Giving them a platform or not isn't changing the vote share. We need to engage with the argument. Unless Alan Graves has a comparable social media platform that I'm not aware of.

I'm sure the EU might get some grim satisfaction from rubbing it in Farage's face tbh. It's a huge PR win for them if we stay. They did everything maturely and appropriately to facilitate us leaving, we looked at it and decided it was a nightmare, and changed our minds. That should give every other EU country pause if they approach the same decision.