Rayvin

I genuinely believe that a number of things done by the government in recent days would indeed rank as treasonous.

Ok well, this sounds overall like a pretty big positive then. Until the Supreme Court shuts it all down on Tuesday

What tangible consequence does that actually have?

Only if you believe that there is actually some kind of negotiation required here. Maybe I've missed this, but it has seemed to me that the EU has more or less said that we can have any of the off the shelf models, or a tailor made bespoke model that is a stones throw off no deal. Assuming Labour aren't going for the latter option, they're literally going to be coming back with Soft Brexit. So then it goes to the people and we have a choice. Are you saying that the EU would somehow turn around and say that actually, we can't have soft Brexit because it's more likely that we will vote to Remain if they force us into almost No Deal? The responsible thing for May to have done is literally what Labour has just proposed. Obviously she would have campaigned for her deal, but given that Labour campaigned pre-referendum to Remain, I don't think a cross party backed exit deal followed by a referendum within which they campaign for Remain is at all inconsistent. It's just fucking honest. There is no variation of leaving this trading bloc that is better than just staying the fuck in. That's what Labour's position is.

I've now watched that several times, and her position makes complete sense to me. I genuinely don't understand what it is that people are struggling to grasp. Labour's position - we will negotiate a deal (probably along the lines of an off the shelf Norway/Canada model with some tweaks for the UK specific requirements) that we believe is the best we can get while fulfilling the original Brexit mandate, and then we will put it to the people but still maintain that Remain is a better option. So in other words, they're giving the people a fully informed decision made as safe as it can be. Honest to fuck I despair at the media in this country, they're fucking cretins. EDIT - I'm going to add that I thought it was stupid at first too, but the fact that it clearly is not, and that it's still doing the rounds as if it is, makes me despair.

If Scotland goes they're going to take a large number of younger people from England with them. Which will probably be an economic boon tbh.

I meant the cries of 'shame' but interesting where your minds went.

The scenes at the close of Parliament were pretty dramatic Opposition MPs basically giving the Tories a GOT walk of shame.

Don't disagree

100%. In earnest.

I'm on Merlot which, before we get the jibes in, I'm aware will surprise none of you

Political disengagement, I totally agree about. And you're right about it leading to fascism. Really that's all I meant with my door metaphor concerning Cameron - he opened the door and, apparently, fascism is trying to walk through it.

Gonna put on record that I've been drinking so if I'm more robust in my assertions than usual, then I apologise. Still fucking right though

We have been witnessing a right (and left) wing push back against globalisation that is fundamentally misunderstood as a rise of fascism, to my enduringly deep frustration. It is not. It is an issue, but it is not fascism (even if fascists hijack it periodically). A government ignoring the laws and constitution of a country actually -is- fascism. Even Trump can't get away with the kind of shit Johnson appears to be trying for.

Johnson has put his own self before 60 million people (and destroyed the Tories in the process) but I'm not going to argue this any further, I respect I'm in a minority.

I respect where you're coming from and maybe with the realm of standard British politics you're right, but in terms of human history and destructive potential, I disagree.

You know those people who think we're witnessing the rise of fascism, and I regularly complain about them in the SJW thread for being ridiculous and distracting from real issues? Based on the fact we have a government actively trying to subvert Parliament for its own gain by threatening to ignore laws, hiding information that might save lives/prevent serious economic harm, and shutting down parliament in a bid to avoid scrutiny during a time of national crisis, I'm starting to think maybe I was wrong. That doctor who rubbed JRM up the wrong way claims they're stockpiling body bags for increased mortality post-Brexit. Maybe it's project fear, but one thing I'm fucking certain of is that I wouldn't trust Johnson and Cummings to have given it a second thought, true or not.

Cameron backed Remain, Johnson was a remainer who backed Leave for personal political advantage. Maybe Cameron, in Johnson's position, would do the same things - but we don't actually know that. All we know is that he was a total cunt who set the groundwork for all of this and gambled with the country's future, but -at least- was on the right side of the debate. Frankly, I consider Farage more morally credible than Johnson because he has stuck to his plan throughout a period of some 20 years. Johnson is unforgivable. Even for a politician.

So you prefer Johnson?

And Johnson didn't vote for any of that? I'm not saying Cameron was a moral paragon, far fucking from it. But fucking look at what's going on man. Fucking look at it.

It depends what you think is worse. I'll get on board for certain with Cameron being more damaging overall, but in terms of moral fortitude, I put him head and shoulders above Johnson and Cummings. He may have opened the door for the monsters to walk through, and as such if you were going to go back in time and assassinate anyone, it'd be him - but he isn't the monster itself.

I don't see Cameron breaking the law or avoiding doing what Parliament says. I mean Number 10 has just confirmed that if they pass this vote to have the government release Yellowhammer and private whatsapp messages to prove proroguing was in order to ensure No Deal - they will simply ignore it. Cameron was an asshat, but no way he'd be doing this. The country is actually, without exaggeration, being hijacked by a man who could best be described as an absolute clusterfuck of an individual, and someone who I can only assume is a chartered psychopath. This is worse than Cameron.

In terms of absolutes, maybe. But I'd have him back in a heartbeat now.

I don't think it matters at this point, we're in the end game of the whole affair. If we get past October 31st and we're still not out, we'll find a way to Remain. If Johnson takes us out before then, it makes no difference if Bercow is there or not since the UK will be finished as a place worth living in for about 50 years, according to Rees-Mogg at least.

Apparently No. 10 has just seen polling that suggests that if there was an election now they would do worse than Theresa May. Although that obviously doesn't mean we're out of the woods since the Brexit Party could be picking the seats up instead.