Rayvin

I do now. And honestly even if I'm wrong, I'll be less pissed about No Deal if it's actually clear that the public voted for it instead of the whole process being hijacked.

I'm sure this is wishful thinking but it's still interesting: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/21/bankers-corbyn-tories-no-deal-capitalism-radical-government Bankers starting to think Corbyn might not be as dangerous as the Tories. McDonnell has apparently been circulating in banking circles for months now and doesn't seem to be putting anyone off...?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/20/thornberry-labour-could-back-tory-brexit-deal-in-exchange-for-referendum Labour could vote through any deal Boris comes back with as long as we get a referendum on it. I think I'm ok on this idea.

It's an interesting one because Watson does pretty much spend all of his time disagreeing with Labour high command and apparently hasn't been to a cabinet meeting for some time. I can see their reason for removing him 100%. The problem is of course that he's right about Brexit and tbh probably most of the other issues as well. It's hard to say, maybe having a stronger sense of unity going into a GE will help them win more votes - if that's the case then fine. I couldn't care less about what shape Labour is in at the end of this as long as Brexit is cancelled. I'm struggling to imagine it will harm them given the moderates (and even my own self) have abandoned them for the LDs already.

No, wasn't an identity based issue - I don't think my 5 year old self had realised that 'people can be divided based on petty bullshit like skin colour and religion'

I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. I think the big risk is that Parliament folds and we crash out or get some kind of last minute stitch up arrangement that is basically hard brexit. If we can get past October 31st, even if we have to go through an election first, I think we'll come out on top in the end. Although I'm more confident about the referendum outcome than I am about a GE, which may be a prerequisite for the former. Having said that, you have to imagine that as far as the likes of the Daily Mail are concerned, it'll be a cold day in hell before they watch Corbyn walk into Downing Street off the back of a vote to keep us in the EU.

Unless we vote Remain. Which I genuinely think will happen if we get the chance. The loudest round of applause in QT isn't anything that should alarm you - these people are loud in comment sections, on twitter, in the pub - but it doesn't make them a majority. Even the last time out, it was the marginal Brexit voters who cost us the whole thing - not the gammons. We don't need to bring them on board, all we need is the people who just want the whole thing to go away and to be able to make ends meet.

What are you basing that on though? So what if a handful of people had some ridiculous views, that tells us nothing about the country at large. Even if the show pulls together a cross section of the public with the same level of impartiality and rigour as polling companies do, did they assess the extent to which the leavers had a majority within the audience there?

I get what you're saying but I'm not having a hard time believing that this could happen

True, but if I was Johnson I'd take that. Workers rights and the environment - easily things that can be rode roughshod over once we're out.

I think that's where we have to rely on the People's Vote group to be the 'informal and unofficial remain pact'. If this is to be a single issue election, anyone seeking remain over and above any other considerations should vote the way they're suggested to.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/19/peoples-vote-tells-labour-mps-not-to-back-a-johnson-brexit-deal On the other hand, about 20-30 Labour MPs are apparently poised to vote for a deal if Johnson provides one.

The Remain coalition + Labour gives us that second vote though.

There's a chance he could end up campaigning on two fronts though, against Johnson and Corbyn. Johnson has a tough choice to make with this - if he opens the door to Farage, he loses moderates. If he closes the door, the Brexit vote is split in key regions. I've even seen commenters in the Mail saying they will ditch the Tories if they ally with Farage. So if we get past October 31st I think Farage will be emboldened but it will be at the expense of the Tories. Also, Farage has failed on 7 occasions to be elected as an MP. I'm sure he'll manage it this time, but he clearly isn't fantastic at GEs.

I think it looks favourable. Brexit Party is down for now, which gives Labour some protection - plus they don't have the same reach that Labour do anyway, in terms of activists and campaigners. The LDs appear to be targeting the Tory moderates. Combined with the sophisticated tactical voting plan that the People's Vote group is going to produce, I think it's odds on that a Remain coalition comes out on top. Admittedly, this is assuming that Cummings is as smart as he seems to be (not very), and that the surge of Tory facebook campaigning isn't enough to change the flow.

Johnson has a big lead only because remainers have abandoned Labour for the LDs. Both Labour and the LDs could be in coalition together (if Swinson gets over herself) or at the very least could get enough MPs to vote through a second referendum. Combine those two parties and suddenly Johnson is behind. Number 10's private polling revealed they currently think he's on course for 290 seats - which is no majority. I would ignore that lead, it doesn't present the real picture. Especially if he rules out a pact with the BP. And if he rules it in, the LDs will take a bigger number of moderate Tories. I am convinced a second referendum will put this to bed if we can just get there.

Aye, my bad - magic player indeed.

I had a similar experience although not over racism. Huge drama about nothing and no intent to do harm on my side. Took a lot of counselling to work through it. Sorry to hear what happened to your daughter, it's not right. The other kid I kind of understand but the teachers should handle it a lot better than they did.

Agree with this. Whether he is racist or not, the sorts of things he is alleged to have said are clearly aimed at black players only and have their roots in the casual racism of the imperial age. Yeah sure, maybe he didn't know it was racist (i.e. he hasn't read the news in the last 20 years) but that still doesn't make it acceptable and an example needs to be made. Good player in his day but apparently a fucking moron. Makes me think the club should implement some kind of diversity training though.

I'm not sure the arguments have been poor, I think it's more that the delivery has been lacking. And also, in fairness, the will on the leave side to pay any attention to people who are demonstrably better informed has been entirely absent.

Yeah that's where I'm heading. Outright revoke is fine if it comes down to an all or nothing scenario where it's the only way to avert No Deal, but otherwise we have to believe that after all this, the public are can actually do the right thing on a second vote. And as NJS said, I suppose they've done this without any expectation whatsoever that they'll be in the position to do anything about it. As such, they're banking on picking up the diehard remainers, probably from Labour - it's just cynical. And fucking risky. Labour's position does seem to be the only responsible option.

If she's going after the Tories then it's no bad thing. The Lib Dems, I'm positive, used to eat more into Labour's vote share than anyone else's. If that's about to change then good.

Lib Dems have made things difficult now IMO. They look to be the extremists on the Remain side in the same sense that the Tories are now the extremists on the Brexit side. Labour amazingly look like they've positioned themselves in the fairest way, with the highest chance of putting the issue to bed without total chaos. Unsure which way to vote now but am starting to think NJS is right about Swinson. While I still don't know her politics very well, I think she's started running before she can walk here. I'm not someone who believes that Corbyn is an 'extreme option' outside of Brexit, but I'm a bit curious to know what the people who do think about the current lay of the land. Choices for them are now "extreme Brexit, extreme Remain, or extreme Corbyn"

I think I'm hoping it all falls flat ultimately, risky though that may be.

They voted that down every time though. Johnson getting a deal is his only 'out' now, I'm concerned about Parliament granting No Deal in all but name (May's deal) and giving him a lifeline.