Rayvin

Speaking of insane amounts of time, Boris has managed to get the Tory Lords to table over 100 amendments to Benn in order to filibuster it indefinitely. The price for them not doing this is a GE, apparently.

On this I agree. The whole thing has gone on for a truly insane amount of time.

Tactically speaking though, as a remainer, the Tories present a possible open goal for putting this to bed once and for all, and it would be stupid for us not to go for the whole thing. That's not our fault, it's theirs for being so fucking intransigent.

It's not about that. Like it or not, the original referendum was so poorly conceived that it was in effect open to interpretation in any way at all. If May had come out and said ok, we'll have soft Brexit which will reflect the closeness of the vote while minimising the harm to the UK, I would have accepted it. As would almost all Remainers, and it would have been straight through Parliament. But she didn't. She wanted the hard right wet dream Brexit. There was never any mandate for this. No one can prove there was. The Tories have tried to maintain that there is somehow, but there just isn't. They've refused to compromise the whole way through, letting themselves be pulled farther and farther to the right, until we get here. I will say unequivocally - if we have another vote, with No Deal on the ticket, and No Deal wins, fine. There's the mandate for it. Stupid as I think it is, as much as it fucks up my life, fine. But while the only mandate remains entirely imaginary, this must be resisted at all costs. I really don't understand how leavers don't appreciate this. No one voted for no deal. No majority voted for Hard Brexit. It's clear as fucking day.

If you're referring to the extension, this one would settle it. We get clear of No Deal, have a GE, the Tories have had more than enough rope to hang themselves now, and we finally put this back to a people's vote and kill the bastard once and for all.

Still doesn't mean he'll bring the rest of Labour with him.

I can't quite believe it's true. Surely if the government did this, there'd be hell on. Maybe the MPs really are that fucking hopeless. Also, fuck every Labour MP who voted for this.

The amendment in the name of Stephen Kinnock didn’t have a vote as the Government didn’t provide tellers to count. This meant the amendment went through although the No Lobby was full. This wasn’t an accident you can be assured there’s some skullduggery going on

In which case 48% of the public clearly have no idea what Corbyn wants to do in power, or what No Deal entails What is it about the functioning and generally happy, mixed economy scandinavian countries that terrifies your average Joe so much? I mean I know the answer to that, it's the Daily Mail's Venezuela based fear mongering that terrifies them, not that they really understand any of it. But it's still not Corbyn's policy to turn us into Venezuela so these people are cretins. Having said that, it's still a frustrating point - Corbyn is a barrier still to this being resolved favourably.

So Spelman presumably out then, Johnson's majority falls further - not that it matters at this point unless it falls beneath Labour, I guess. Is that GE bill happening today?

fucking Labour.. What does that mean, are we back to a November GE?

And yet it remains official Labour policy to back one once the amendment is passed. They confirmed it about an hour ago.

They always do that though, May was the same, they never actually responded to anything. I know that's the standard but ffs, I don't know why anyone even bothers to pitch questions. Johnson was weak at the start of the answer and thunderous at the end - and the right wingers will only think about the end.

I'm not sure they'll necessarily get their way though. Team Corbyn, assuming it covers the front bench, isn't enough to get a two thirds majority. PLP could dig their heels in. Also, I found all of this very encouraging: Voters regard Johnson’s suspension of parliament as undemocratic by an overwhelming 46% to 32%, while the prime minister’s decision to throw 21 of his MPs – including two former chancellors of the exchequer and the grandson of Sir Winston Churchill – out of his party is also viewed as undemocratic by 45% to 32%. Barely a fifth (22%) of voters think people voted in 2016 to leave with no deal, reinforcing claims by Johnson’s opponents that he has no mandate to impose this on the British people now. But only 21% think a general election is the right way to settle Brexit. Instead, a majority - 53% excluding don’t knows – say they support a new public vote. Johnson has defended his hardline stance by claiming he’s seeking to negotiate a new deal but fewer voters (39%) think he’s serious about this than think he’s not serious (42%).

Was good but Johnson just batted it away with a "my cabinet is super diverse" line, and "what about Labour and antisemitism"...

Not sure Labour are changing their tune, the familiar mixed messages are coming out now. I fear we're not out of the woods yet, Team Corbyn still seem to want that GE.

Not McDonnell's biggest fan but I'm enjoying that nonetheless.

Indeed, I've also got to admit that Corbyn has stepped up strong on this. Labour look almost credible as opposition. Partially that's because Boris is woeful, but partially it's because they're finally taking a stand on the bloody issue.

The polls are indeed a concern, but maybe Labour's frustrating position on Brexit might in the end help us out here. The Lib Dems and Labour are more or less neck in neck, which means that for a majority government they'd need to go into coalition. That might encourage enough moderates to think that Labour will be sufficiently neutered by their presence, that voting away from Tory (and obviously for LDs) is acceptable.

"A special meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party has just broken up, the near-unanimous view of the room was that Corbyn should hold off on a snap election until after November 1. Corbyn may disagree. But in the words of one figure: "They (MPs) are the ones who have the vote." ^If they do this, Johnson is in trouble.

I mean, I agree with you. I don't give a flying fuck who they install - could even be Cameron himself for all I care, if he ever felt like getting back on the right side of this - but this is the only way of categorically ruling out No Deal, and it frustrates me that party politics is preventing it from happening.

The SNP may well demand that, but imagine if Corbyn says no. What are they going to do then, enable Boris out of spite? Not sure Scotland will appreciate that.

Surely this must be focusing minds though. I mean even Ken Clarke came out and said he would back Corbyn. The LDs would have to, SNP surely would.. And the Tory rebels... admittedly that's a stretch but Boris has at least just made it easier.

That picture is going to haunt him forever I just read that the guy claimed £6.7m to refurbish his home while voting through the bedroom tax. Words can't describe how morally bankrupt he is.

True. I suppose if Labour gets a GE win it can go to the EU and request an extension long enough to hold one. It just seems like Labour are still playing by the rules and the Brexiteers aren't. This amendment, fun as it is, does nothing to protect us from No Deal if we have this GE. All it does is stop Johnson trying to cheat and force us out. If Labour were playing by the same rulebook as the Tories, they'd force a vote of no confidence and simply remove Boris, install JC, and request the extension that way. I do firmly believe they can now do this. But they won't.