Rayvin

Have to say mind, I've been enjoying following these arguments even if I am a couple of days late to them

I like Rafa. I dont like Bruce. If you want me to be endlessly objective and impartial, go to the politics threads

See, it's this dross that underlines his unsuitability. This squad wasn't just "staying up" last year. It was competent. So Bruce's plan and expectation is basically that he won't be as good as Rafa, so all we can hope for is that he's not so much worse that we go down. So he doesn't even rate himself. And the PL hasn't become harder. We've spent so much that it should actually be easier for us this year. The man is a complete waste of space.

Totally the same Strawb. It's more or less killed the game for me. I imagine we're just ahead of the curve though, surely plenty of other teams will eventually end up in the same place. Happy to be cannon fodder for the "big" clubs.

The only good thing we can do for this club is stop supporting it until Ashley goes. Some disagree, but that's where i am now. If we continue it's just an endorsement of his regime. Best case scenario for us is we go down and stay down. I'd even take League One if it just got rid of that absolute parasite. We won't go anywhere under Ashley, so whatever painful ego death we have to endure to get rid of him is worth it in my book.

Almost all of us want to be relegated mate, it's the only way to remove the cancer. Don't read too much into your season from this result, we're a hollowed out shell of a football club. Having said that, with us going down it increases your chances of staying up. Good luck with it.

Sunderland https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/people-sunderland-warned-stop-defacating-16765897

And despite impartial reporting in the media for the past two years, somehow Corbyn has come off worse than those two.

Yeah but they could probably do without underlining that pre-GE. Ignoring even just the Lib Dem angle, it could harm Remain if centre right voters feel they have to make a choice between a Corbyn government and Remain.

Really difficult one. On the basis of avoiding Brexit/No Deal at all costs, the Lib Dems should put up with just about anything, but I can see why it's a problem for them. If they're seen to be supporting a Corbyn government then that's going to be front and centre of any upcoming election campaign from the tories. Vote LD, get Corbyn. And that might mean we lose seats in some of the places where the LDs are the only viable alternative to the Tories. It's actually surprisingly clever from Labour which pisses me off somewhat. Of course, Corbyn could come out and make clear that any such government would be established on the basis of one specific policy issue, and that out of respect for the differing opinions on other issues that have led him into power, he will not undertake to make any other radical reforms beyond general upkeep of the country, and that once Brexit is resolved, he will immediately call a GE. But he's not going to do that.

Just so you know, I appreciate your consistency.

I mean, I could do it. Let's be real, almost anyone in here could run the Labour Party more effectively than it is presently being operated. And I could just tell them that I identify as a woman. No one would be able to say a damn thing.

This was surprisingly sparse on details

Watson is too divisive for the party membership IMO. Needs to be someone a bit more understated - probably wouldn't hurt if it was a woman, either.

I mean the same was kind of true with Corbyn

Yes I guess so. EU elections were the time to do it. So we'll sail into the abyss for the sake of disaster socialism, apparently.

All of which could be headed off if Labour would just get behind Remain.

This is exactly how I see it. The Tories only hope now is to either somehow get no deal through, or put it back to another referendum.

If there's a GE tomorrow and -all- Remain vote Lib Dem or Green, we get a Lib Dem or Green government. If you're just talking about that 50% deserter Labour voters plus the historical LD and G voters, then they aren't strong enough on their own, but it means that Labour with it's remaining 30% should be a kingmaker. And they have to choose between Tory/BP minority government, or a coalition of remainers. But I was talking about a referendum really. The GE isn't going to help anyone at all, at any point. Which is why Labour banking on it is ludicrous.

I'm not quite sure who you think Labour are appealing to though. There may not be a stop Brexit button, but there sure as hell should be a structured opposition to a hugely damaging government policy, and that opposition should be remain - a position Labour themselves campaigned for. Them taking a stance on this would demonstrate far more clearly that there are consequences to Brexit that are seriously worth opposing, and give Remain a force to rally around. Moreover, it will win them far more votes in any GE than their current position, which has them struggling to stay ahead of the Lib Dems. I mean fine, give the Tories what they need to be able to paint Labour as Remain - what fucking consequence is there to that now? Labour have lost everyone they're going to lose to this issue full stop - so choose a fucking side! Try to win back the 14% of lost voters who went for the Brexit Party, or try to win back the 50% of voters who went for the Lib Dems. There is simply no good logic for their stance, and it is clear to me that they don't have the stones to take on Brexit properly, and simply want it to go away so they can focus on their other policy issues. They're fucking useless.

I've fucking had it with Labour now tbh. Clearly the plan is that they're going to try to get in the same way the Nazis believe they can get in - extreme economic turmoil. So they'll let Johnson walk the country off a cliff, and then sweep in on the back of a punishment vote. If this is the plan, then even if it means returning Johnson to PM, I will never vote for them. Not that I matter in my pointlessly safe Labour seat.

It may be a trap, but if she calls one Labour have to back it. Otherwise they're effectively demonstrating a vote of confidence in the government.

If they call one and Labour doesn't back it then yes, his hand has been strengthened. If one is called, Labour need to go all in with it.

He's going to have to get used to the Lib Dems getting the credit for things Labour should be doing, for as long as Labour persist with not doing things things that Labour should be doing.

Why wouldn't he? Seriously, why wouldn't he? What the fuck possible advantage is there to Labour in not backing it. EDIT - which isn't to say I think you're wrong btw. I'm just incredulous that it could even be in doubt and frustrated that this is where Labour are.