Rayvin

But how is Labour's stance bad for remaining? It isn't. Honestly, it's better than coming out for remain. I don't believe this idea that no one, in a country of people who bought Brexit, will buy Labours neutrality. It will be worth some votes.

Yeah, it's almost as if the party in government should mitigate the damage by getting a "least damaging Brexit deal" option to stand against remain in a referendum, thus giving the people a reasonably safe and informed democratic exercise which can be used to resolve this matter once and for all. Its actually a real shame it's Labour who are doing that since if any other party did it the media would be talking about it as if it was the most sensible thing anyone anywhere had ever proposed. Because it's Labour the whole strategy is being consumed by rabid anti-Corbynism. I've been paying attention to Swinson over the past few days for the first time and am not sold on her at all. I don't like throwing around labels about people being closet Tories but fucking hell. Were the Lib Dems always like this or is it new? I'm wondering if i just never really noticed - I always had them as soft left.

Sure, but for all the hand wringing over Labour's position I'm yet to hear anyone tell me why it is actually a bad thing other than emotional hysteria, at least in terms of remaining in the EU. I mean sure, if you want an outright Labour government it's very dubious that the current position will enable that, but does anyone getting worked up about that care very much on this front? And surely any variant of Mays deal kills FOM. I can't support it on that basis alone. Even taking my personal feelings out of it, if we lose FOM then we also lose Scotland. And probably NI.

The Daily Mail was rubbing its hands with glee for the chance to openly call Labour a Remain party yesterday. Also I suspect the opportunity to make Corbyn look weak. I don't understand this knee jerk hysteria from the media. I mean i know that's a fairly standard position for me but they're off the deep end this time, at least the ones who want to remain. I can see why the right wing press would make a big fuss about this. I suspect there is a large enough chunk of society that is not enthusiastically supporting Leave or Remain, to whom Labour's middle ground position might appeal, for this to be a worthwhile gamble. Any remain voters will go for Labour in their usual seats anyway because we still get a second referendum. All yesterday confirms is that they won't fight an election with the LDs as their primary opponents.

Also, were you not coming around to Labour's position the other day?

Why is it insanity? Since we already know that it isn't a negotiation in any meaningful sense, it's a process of selecting a package and then making some customisation tweaks so that it works. This country is fucking mental.

I'll stress as well that the Daily Mail, in its coverage of the conference, was getting incredibly excited about the idea of Corbyn being forced to back remain. And anything that excites the Mail is bad for humanity.

I don't know who this guy is and he's entitled to his opinion but i still would appreciate someone telling me how Labour coming out for remain does anything to boost remains chances of getting a majority for a second referendum. It leaves them in exactly the same pool of voters as the Lib Dems. This guy may believe that no one in the country will buy Labour's stance but the alternative has zero net gain potential for remain. This has at least some potential. I'm terms of Labour's electoral chances in general, yes it's harmful. But most of the people getting worked up about this seem to be avid Remainers rather than Labour supporters, and it just doesn't make sense. Unless someone can explain to me how Labour's current position does anything to harm the chances of a pro referendum majority in parliament.

To Labour itself, sure. To the country's national interest it may be exactly what we need.

Yes I heard that too, and yes it does sound disingenuous. I still think it's the right outcome for anyone wanting to remain though. The public vote, when the time comes, will have a mass movement galvanising people to vote in. It doesn't need Labour to be front and centre of it, it'll be cross party and energised. What we need urgently before that, is to make sure that second vote happens. And Labour fighting over Remainer votes with the Lib Dems does nothing to achieve this compared to leaving themselves as broadly open as possible.

I really don't think that becoming a 'Remain' party was going to do us any favours in terms of actually remaining. But I do acknowledge that it makes it harder for Labour to win an outright victory.

I don't even really see these as the main goals for the next Labour government, there's far more achievable things they can set their sights on without having to go for the super radical stuff. All this shit is going to do is scare the moderates.

He really is.

Just came across this video from a few months back of Monbiot on Frankie Boyle's show.

My bad, I barely slept last night and it's apparently showing with short term memory loss. I still think it's risky.

It's risky. The more I think about it, the more it narrows the vote pool of people whose votes can be used to theoretically win a remain situation.

We've all been saying that for months now, but there is a bigger issue at hand here - if all our dreams come true and Labour sweep into power, cancel Brexit, and lead us into the sunlit uplands of a mixed economy - we will have a very pissed off 50% of the country who will feel that their democratic vote has just been rode over roughshod. Corbyn's position up until now had been a healing one - if we go full Remain, as much as I've wanted Labour to do this for months now, what will that mean in practice? They go for straight revoke? If they were going to do this, it had to be done a year ago. Now it feels too late and I'm tempted to say is only going to cause more confusion in the Remain side. I could see a way for Remain to come out on top with the lay of the land before - I mean the Lib Dems already had the revoke crowd covered, and Labour's muddled position was probably covering a few Brexiters. All I can see here is us potentially cutting away a slice of the public nearer to the leave side and hoping that there is enough to take back from the LDs for an outright Labour victory...

Sounds like some intensive behind the scenes work is going on from Labour high command though... Not convinced Remain will win this.

I guess that's what we want, but I don't really think his neutral stance was necessarily wrong. I've never been convinced that Corbyn was a closet leaver, but I am sure that he's openly indifferent. Let's hope whatever outcome it is plays well to the public.

What would that mean though - I was coming around to Corbyn's position as the best way of bridging the divide. Going out and out Remain seems polarising.

I just can't bring myself to watch it

Well in that case I'd say we're broadly aligned on who actually needs help and just talking ideology which, when we're pragmatically aligned, is a little pointless. I think money should be creamed off the super rich over and above anyone else. I do think inheritance should be looked at, since it flies in the face of "people worked hard to get where they are" (no they didn't, their dad did - in those cases). I don't believe McDonnell should start taking away homes from people who have worked hard and are just well off, but I do think that people with excessive property portfolios making places like London unaffordable for normal people absolutely should be dealt with.

Yeah I see what you're saying, but not investing in poor communities and increasing social mobility has led us to exactly the same place. People going 'what's the point?' There is no point without a more level playing field and more equal spreading of wealth, not for those starting at the bottom.

20% of people in this country have or have shown signs of depression and anxiety, thus making their fight to 'do something to better their chances' far harder than someone who didn't go through that. What about them? https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/statistics/mental-health-statistics-depression

Not having a dig at you personally btw, just the view. And by and large I think the money does go where it's needed. Who is it that you think doesn't need it?