Rayvin

Yes, I think that if he just wants power, this is best. If he actually is all in for no deal then he'll go for a GE. The thing is though, presumably Labour will have something up their sleeves to bring us to a GE anyway. If we get that extension it might not matter what Johnson does with timetabling, he could face a VONC immediately.

Oh god, what nonsense is afoot now. Hard to imagine this will lead anywhere other than presumably giving Johnson the chance to say Labour blocked him.

The problem with this IMO is actually that there are a significant number of Labour rebels who outright oppose it. I think these rebels would take it if we're post GE and their seats are safe for another 5 years, but with a GE imminent it's never going to get through. We have to do this the high stakes way, sadly.

It is not obvious to me at all that Johnson can win a GE. Even in the polls as they are, the probable outcome is another minority Tory government with an overall remain parliament.

Corbyn doesnt need to win. Remain does.

And its not up to him if we have a GE anyway. So unless he thinks he can get the EU to block the extension and blame everyone else for no deal, idk where we go from here.

I dunno though, not saying it's come from Corbyn but Labour have just managed to have their cake and eat it, with Corbyn standing there making an offer to work with the government to set a responsible timeframe within which to pass the bill. And Johnson just stormed off. Unless this is all part of the grand Cummings plan, i'd say that this was a clanger by Johnson.

Just a thought - have Labour played a blinder here? They had a good number of their leave MPs back the deal making it more likely they will retain their seats under pressure of Brexit voting, presumably in some key areas, and still managed to scupper it for Johnson. He misses his deadline, Labour go into an election with people seeing that they aren't trying to obstruct Brexit, and they have the potential to hold some vulnerable seats. As insane as I thought these rebel MPs were, if this was the plan from the get go then it's actually pretty solid. It concedes to Johnson the ability to say that his deal is the right one, but its also difficult for him to now argue that they're trying to stop him. They just want time to read it.

But why. There must be some MPs who don't believe that otherwise they'd just vote down Johnson's deal directly. Who is meant to be fooled by this gambit?

A customs union would be sold as a compromise because supposedly no one is pleased about it. The reality is it sacrifices all the good stuff about being in the EU without achieving the one theoretical good thing about leaving. So it's fucking mental, at least on my understanding.

If it goes through, it goes through. Boris then has to win an election against what I can only imagine will be an incredibly energised remain electorate. If he can't, and Labour or a coalition take over, can much of the damage be scaled back?

Why doesn't it resolve anything? I think it resolves everything, no matter which way it goes.

1 million times this. This is literally all we're fighting about now. It makes any intelligent discourse impossible.

So how confident are we that the deal will be shafted? I was reading around this morning and it does seem like confusion has broken out. If the deal falls then we're back to an extension but no closer to a referendum. Then we're on for a general election. The thing is, it does feel that the public is getting hopelessly fed up of this and as much as I don't think there is much appetite for Brexit as a concept, the way the remain MPs are playing this is just supremely aggravating. They won't nail their colours to the mast of anything so all they can do is frustrate. They need to actually DO something.

Kill it with amendments? Is that on the basis that the ERG would vote it down?

How does moving it circumvent it?

I see. Will believe this is possible only of a vote returns as much but i still don't understand how this travesty could get as close as it has.

Good news for Johnson or for us? Are you assuming that no more than 6 will vote for the deal, and therefore it will lose? Or that this number is so high that he's basically guaranteed to grab enough of them?

Letwin himself now saying he'll vote for the deal. What did you guys think this would change?

I still don't see how this changes anything.

Mark Francois and his ilk have kicked the shit out of all of us. I'm now in the acceptance stage of grief I think. The Labour MPs getting this over the line was the final straw.

Whenever it is, why will anyone change their mind? What new information comes to light? It's more time for political machinations for sure, but if there was ever a time for the remain side to pull out all the stops it was the past few days - and all we have is some ingenuity from a Tory backbencher. That's the full might of remain brought to bear on this issue. The remain side won't unite, and so divided they fall. Its over. I genuinely can't see how anything comes along to save us from here. I mean the Labour MPs had made clear weeks before the deal that they'd vote for literally anything as long as it was referred to as a deal. What comes along to change that?

So you think that by Monday these Labour and Tory rebels will unearth something in this deal that makes it unvoteworthy? Something that, despite the national emergency this debacle is, they couldn't see by today, and so they intended to just wing it as a benefit of the doubt to Johnson? They're going to vote for it on Monday. I almost hope Letwin fails just to get it over with.

Has the text of the deal been released?

Right but why does that change the overall thrust of this? So they close the loophole, the government brings back the bill on Monday and everyone votes for it. Why would this change anyone's vote?