Rayvin

Yep, 3 weeks before the last chance we get to save the country from becoming an absolute hellhole. And honestly, I'm not even sure I mean Brexit anymore. I'm starting to think that even as bad as leaving the EU might be, the Tories are now so openly shitting on poor people that they may in fact be worse than Brexit all on their own.

The Tories have released a site titled "labourmanifesto.co.uk" full of disinformation about Labour's manifesto, and are paying for it to appear high up Google's search results as people look for the actual thing. They've absolutely gone full Trump now. It's shameless. They've decided that in general, the population of the country is as cynical and coldhearted as they are, and they're just going for it.

Ultimately this is the consequence of the Lib Dems promising things that they know they'll never have to deliver on. Nothing new really. Labour have to be far more robust.

Bloody hell. I mean, that's some detailed, savage interviewing. That guy on the phone is relentless. I find myself wishing he would turn onto the Tories as well.

His answer doesn't make sense. It's like he thinks she was accusing him of being an anti-semite rather than Labour. Clearly there is anti-semitism in the Labour Party and for him to simply deny it is bizarre. But becoming defensive and seeing it as a personal attack is the best suggestion I have to rationalise his answer.

No I agree on that, Corbyn is frustratingly civilised. However, I did notice after the fact that amongst the unsure voters, Corbyn won that debate handily. 60:40. That's the only group we stand any chance of making a play for. EDIT: source

It's also rare that an opposition party has had to face an issue that transcends regular politics and because of which, no matter what he says short of becoming a more right wing extreme version of the leading party, he will not be able to win over any of the 46% of the country who want it.

Fair enough then I suppose. At least I can see why the Tories wanted it down, and why the BBC felt compelled to do it. I still think the bigger the racket Momentum makes about the whole thing, the better.

Could that not have simply been edited in the tweet itself? I don't use twitter so I'm not sure of the editing functions.

It wasn't a lie when they posted it unless the BBC actually announced beforehand what was going on. In fairness to Momentum, if they don't call out the BBC for being biased, there is nothing to combat the right doing it, which only makes their arguments seem true. Also, I'm curious, what exactly did they 'fix' about the video. Unless it was misrepresenting her in some way, which I would understand a correction for, I'm struggling to think of any good reason to take it down and re-post it.

1. Fight fire with fire. 2. Did the BBC at any point make that clear, prior to taking it down? 3. Who cares, it's made the video even more visible.

I seem to recall suggesting that she might do just such a thing a few weeks ago. Not sure how to feel about it truthfully. Any referendum can save us from Brexit which has to be a win based on where we are, but enabling the Tories is going to lose her left wing voters...

-dies-

I agree and just want to add to this that since the club that is losing out here is Real Madrid, they deserve it. Whatever he's doing, however disrespectful it is, they deserve it.

It would be interfering in an election I guess if they did. The Tories are getting the punishment they deserve in the media though.

I think he'd be massacred for it at this late stage. Would be proof Labour doesn't know what it wants, sign of weakness, all sorts. They have to stay the course now.

I've consistently argued that Labour's position is logical in practice and boosts the potential number of voters more than backing remain would (for remain, not labour). I still believe this. What Labour's position does not do, and i've said this too, is help Labour itself win a GE. By the looks of it we agree on the Corbyn 2017 being a far more compelling version. I mean I pulled out of Labour and turned on Corbyn in January because if his Brexit stance. I've not gone back to him, I'm viewing this entirely from the perspective of remain. But like it or not, Corbyn is what we have to work with. And Swinson, as much as the LDs are now falling in the polls as Labour picks up. He can't change his mind on Brexit now, he has to see it through. I can't imagine anyone's minds have changed tonight on the basis of what we saw.

In general, this whole campaign, he's been lethargic and uninspiring. It's a long way from what he was like in 2017. If we get out of this, it will be off the back of remain voters only.

I'm fine tbh, I just can't be bothered arguing the same shit over and over. This wasn't a great night, as I feared. Corbyn looks like he can't be bothered anymore IMO.

Is that a standard metric is it?

Yawn.

Where is New Labour now?

I didn't say that, I just said his policy was the most logical one out there. I couldn't tell you why he isn't pressing the fact that he's going to support whatever the people decide and remain impartial on the matter. That he has his own private view but feels that a Labour Brexit and a Remain outcome would both allow the UK to go forward into a bright future. Doesn't make the policy less sound. As I said a couple of days ago though, I'm not sure Corbyn's heart is in this anymore. Which is deeply frustrating.

I bet they would too tbh. But we are where we are because bland centrist policies failed in the most absolute terms possible, on both sides of the divide.