Rayvin

-dies-

I agree and just want to add to this that since the club that is losing out here is Real Madrid, they deserve it. Whatever he's doing, however disrespectful it is, they deserve it.

It would be interfering in an election I guess if they did. The Tories are getting the punishment they deserve in the media though.

I think he'd be massacred for it at this late stage. Would be proof Labour doesn't know what it wants, sign of weakness, all sorts. They have to stay the course now.

I've consistently argued that Labour's position is logical in practice and boosts the potential number of voters more than backing remain would (for remain, not labour). I still believe this. What Labour's position does not do, and i've said this too, is help Labour itself win a GE. By the looks of it we agree on the Corbyn 2017 being a far more compelling version. I mean I pulled out of Labour and turned on Corbyn in January because if his Brexit stance. I've not gone back to him, I'm viewing this entirely from the perspective of remain. But like it or not, Corbyn is what we have to work with. And Swinson, as much as the LDs are now falling in the polls as Labour picks up. He can't change his mind on Brexit now, he has to see it through. I can't imagine anyone's minds have changed tonight on the basis of what we saw.

In general, this whole campaign, he's been lethargic and uninspiring. It's a long way from what he was like in 2017. If we get out of this, it will be off the back of remain voters only.

I'm fine tbh, I just can't be bothered arguing the same shit over and over. This wasn't a great night, as I feared. Corbyn looks like he can't be bothered anymore IMO.

Is that a standard metric is it?

Yawn.

Where is New Labour now?

I didn't say that, I just said his policy was the most logical one out there. I couldn't tell you why he isn't pressing the fact that he's going to support whatever the people decide and remain impartial on the matter. That he has his own private view but feels that a Labour Brexit and a Remain outcome would both allow the UK to go forward into a bright future. Doesn't make the policy less sound. As I said a couple of days ago though, I'm not sure Corbyn's heart is in this anymore. Which is deeply frustrating.

I bet they would too tbh. But we are where we are because bland centrist policies failed in the most absolute terms possible, on both sides of the divide.

That'll be Solskjaer out of a job then.

Yes, we all know you're waiting for the halcyon days of bland centrist politics to return. Meanwhile, I note that Swinson is tanking in the polls.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-british-uk-media-news-bias-tories-labour-a9209026.html?fbclid=IwAR3-hXxwAHyujsl0H6h54v5jmowdAjoiGWLyemQna6ROm__BF4IP1mpG-p8 Press massively pro-Tory compared to Corbyn. And whatever you think about Corbyn, it's surely not possible to argue that he has been more offensive, and less competent, than Johnson. This is what we're up against.

Johnson's questions for Corbyn: 1. You are proposing a second referendum on EU membership. In that referendum, would you recommend the UK should remain or leave? 2. Your previous manifesto promised to end freedom of movement, but following your conference it is now Labour party policy to “maintain and extend” free movement. Would you end, maintain or extend free movement, and would immigration be higher or lower under Corbyn’s Labour? 3. Asked on Sunday if you were prepared to continue to pay into the EU budget on an ongoing basis, you replied “clearly if you want access to a market there are costs involved”. How much would you be willing to pay into the EU budget in return for “access to markets”? 4. All 635 Conservative candidates standing at this election have pledged to me that, if elected, they will vote in parliament to pass my Brexit deal. Can you guarantee that every Labour candidate supports your Brexit policy? I think 2 and 4 could be painful.

Honestly I don't know what the point is, but maybe Corbyn is the one with everything to gain. His approval ratings are -60. If he can come across like a normal human being instead of a terrorist sympathising anti-semite (which shouldn't be difficult) then he can only go up, I would think. Johnson, conversely, has it all to lose really.

Have a slight feeling of dread ahead of these debates. Corbyn is usually pretty solid in them but I hate the idea that votes could be won or lost on this.

I'm sure there'll be other things.

I hope you're right about this but in the tweets below the main post, there's a few people saying that this specific message didn't appear in the information dump, and that the IDs don't correspond to Raab's account.

Tories just dropped a hint that they could permit a second independence referendum after 2021. So about the time Labour was talking about doing it too.

Some people are suggesting that the Raab convo is faked..

Is he one of the right wing crazies? I'm not following it enough to know them each by name although I've observed some fairly confident statements by proponents of both sides that seem to lack any substantive evidence behind them. There's the occasional decent post on there but they lack the intellectual heavyweights of this board

Is anyone getting remotely close to impeaching the guy, I've stopped paying attention now really.

I have an account on RTG specifically so that i can read their politics forum which is otherwise hidden. I don't post in it, I just read the views. More balanced mix of people on there although the board still tends to remain overall. One chap started a thread the other day saying he was a leaver, but he thought Labour's position made the most sense out of everyone else's, and that he felt they were the only party who gave him something to vote for. Was happy to have another referendum, didn't feel like the matter had been handled well at all. He seemed politically interested but not super engaged, and was calling for others to change his mind if he was wrong. Now, that's exactly the kind of voter that remain as a whole misses out on if Labour aren't doing what they're doing. So even if he's the only voter in the country who feels that way, not that he will be, Labour's policy has expanded the net of potential voters more than out and out remain ever could. Even if it costs them the votes of other Remainers, as long as those voters don't then go and vote Tory, it's a win. That's the only point I'm trying to make.