Rayvin

Yawn.

Where is New Labour now?

I didn't say that, I just said his policy was the most logical one out there. I couldn't tell you why he isn't pressing the fact that he's going to support whatever the people decide and remain impartial on the matter. That he has his own private view but feels that a Labour Brexit and a Remain outcome would both allow the UK to go forward into a bright future. Doesn't make the policy less sound. As I said a couple of days ago though, I'm not sure Corbyn's heart is in this anymore. Which is deeply frustrating.

I bet they would too tbh. But we are where we are because bland centrist policies failed in the most absolute terms possible, on both sides of the divide.

That'll be Solskjaer out of a job then.

Yes, we all know you're waiting for the halcyon days of bland centrist politics to return. Meanwhile, I note that Swinson is tanking in the polls.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-british-uk-media-news-bias-tories-labour-a9209026.html?fbclid=IwAR3-hXxwAHyujsl0H6h54v5jmowdAjoiGWLyemQna6ROm__BF4IP1mpG-p8 Press massively pro-Tory compared to Corbyn. And whatever you think about Corbyn, it's surely not possible to argue that he has been more offensive, and less competent, than Johnson. This is what we're up against.

Johnson's questions for Corbyn: 1. You are proposing a second referendum on EU membership. In that referendum, would you recommend the UK should remain or leave? 2. Your previous manifesto promised to end freedom of movement, but following your conference it is now Labour party policy to “maintain and extend” free movement. Would you end, maintain or extend free movement, and would immigration be higher or lower under Corbyn’s Labour? 3. Asked on Sunday if you were prepared to continue to pay into the EU budget on an ongoing basis, you replied “clearly if you want access to a market there are costs involved”. How much would you be willing to pay into the EU budget in return for “access to markets”? 4. All 635 Conservative candidates standing at this election have pledged to me that, if elected, they will vote in parliament to pass my Brexit deal. Can you guarantee that every Labour candidate supports your Brexit policy? I think 2 and 4 could be painful.

Honestly I don't know what the point is, but maybe Corbyn is the one with everything to gain. His approval ratings are -60. If he can come across like a normal human being instead of a terrorist sympathising anti-semite (which shouldn't be difficult) then he can only go up, I would think. Johnson, conversely, has it all to lose really.

Have a slight feeling of dread ahead of these debates. Corbyn is usually pretty solid in them but I hate the idea that votes could be won or lost on this.

I'm sure there'll be other things.

I hope you're right about this but in the tweets below the main post, there's a few people saying that this specific message didn't appear in the information dump, and that the IDs don't correspond to Raab's account.

Tories just dropped a hint that they could permit a second independence referendum after 2021. So about the time Labour was talking about doing it too.

Some people are suggesting that the Raab convo is faked..

Is he one of the right wing crazies? I'm not following it enough to know them each by name although I've observed some fairly confident statements by proponents of both sides that seem to lack any substantive evidence behind them. There's the occasional decent post on there but they lack the intellectual heavyweights of this board

Is anyone getting remotely close to impeaching the guy, I've stopped paying attention now really.

I have an account on RTG specifically so that i can read their politics forum which is otherwise hidden. I don't post in it, I just read the views. More balanced mix of people on there although the board still tends to remain overall. One chap started a thread the other day saying he was a leaver, but he thought Labour's position made the most sense out of everyone else's, and that he felt they were the only party who gave him something to vote for. Was happy to have another referendum, didn't feel like the matter had been handled well at all. He seemed politically interested but not super engaged, and was calling for others to change his mind if he was wrong. Now, that's exactly the kind of voter that remain as a whole misses out on if Labour aren't doing what they're doing. So even if he's the only voter in the country who feels that way, not that he will be, Labour's policy has expanded the net of potential voters more than out and out remain ever could. Even if it costs them the votes of other Remainers, as long as those voters don't then go and vote Tory, it's a win. That's the only point I'm trying to make.

Out of nowhere interview with Phillipe Albert in the guardian... pretty good, lots on Keegan: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/nov/17/philippe-albert-newcastle-keegan-asprilla-manchester-united-interview I also find it remarkable how down to earth he is. I mean apparently he retired, put his money away and got a normal job as a green grocer. Now he looks after horses for his wife's business and just seems happy.

They'll pay off his accuser in the coming weeks and that'll be the end of it. We'll all know what that means, but we'll pretend not to.

Just to reinforce that point: Conservative polling by age: 18-24: 16% 25-49: 31% 50-64: 47% 65+: 64% Labour polling by age: 18-24: 49% 25-49: 38% 50-64: 19% 65+: 14% YouGov/Sky/The Times 11-12 Nov #GE2019

I mean look at the LDs, the party of the centre. What the fuck do they actually stand for? Seriously. Beyond Brexit, what is there? Fucking nothing.

How do you think the EU came about if not through some kind of vision? Why do you think they're in a kind of evolution towards statehood if they don't have some overall aim? Your entire first line is based solely on what you have observed from British politics in the past 4 years. I'm not saying we need to adopt a fully socialist economy or anything purist in ideological terms, but I am saying that any shift towards a better future needs an accompanying vision of what that future can be. The vision is what brings people with you from across the aisle, and enables unity going forward. Where we have struggled here, is that we had two fairly radical visions appearing at the same time. I've said before, if the centre could come up with anything remotely resembling an exciting statement on where it wants to be in the future, I'd be back with it. As it stands, I expect that I will simply disengage.

Is nationalism really all you can come up with when someone talks about vision? Fucking hell, if that's representative of the centre then we are indeed fucked. Corbyn, for all you hate the guy, has a vision. It's about making society fairer and more equal, and creating a better life for people in general. That's something he deeply cares about and is at the heart of his campaigning. You can call it bollocks all you like, but that semblance of a vision is important for a lot of people. Especially young people I might add. How can we expect young people to be motivated by pragmatic political decisions that they rightly see as just rearranging window dressing on a fixed model? Disagree all you want, but this country has been crying out for a vision for decades and now has Corbynism and Brexit. The fact that both are inadequate (Corbyn's largely only because he is) doesn't change the fact that they have both motivated people to overcome a status quo that they weren't happy with.

Although having watched that video, I would suggest that he's voting the way he is because he's thoroughly disenfranchised. Someone who has little in the way of individual achievement, and so looks to reflected glory from being 'British'. Brexit is something to be 'proud' about because of the way it's sold, so it appeals to him over and above the mediocre improvements to his life that he thinks any of the parties will really offer. If that is his thinking, I can understand it. This is why 20 years of no one having any kind of vision for the country has been damaging. There needs to be something to rally behind.

Totally agree.