Rayvin

Fair. On the subject of Putin, I feel like we should collectively acknowledge that we are literally at war with Russia now. This constant fucking on with our countries and democracies is a war. We should see it for what it is.

I think we're kinda through the looking glass now tbh, this is Trump's world to mould as he sees fit. We shall see if he's competent enough to use that.

The thing I would put to you I guess is this - if you're right, it feels like there's nothing we can do about it. If I'm right, there is something we can do about it. So we may as well assume I'm right because it's the only assumption that we can do anything about 😉

I feel like we're just discussing something tbf, but I do think Renton and I are two people with nearly identical views, separated by perspective alone

I do take your point, it's just that having plunged into the murkier parts of the right wing discourse online at least, I've never seen anyone other than the absolute fringe mentalists (which depressingly, we cannot now consider Trump to be) say that women are not fit to lead. The young men I've been observing, none of them have said that. Ever. They're all about sticking it to the left because they view us as preachy, self righteous bellends who refuse to listen. So sure, maybe it's swung hugely back the other way - but you'd think someone somewhere would have picked up on that. And why in an interconnected and online era, would it only be a US specific thing? We lack the evidence to know based on just that article, I'm open to a revised opinion if further relevant data comes to light.

I mean I'm not the one making that claim particularly, I'm citing experts who have made it. You are of course free to disagree with their conclusion but I think the Tory party shows that women being in charge really isn't the factor we all want to believe it is...

Think I'd be tempted to say that this is trolling the losing side more than any sincerely held belief. I'm seeing it online too and at least there it seems to be designed entirely with the aim of winding up the more ardent feminists. Our side is giving plenty back though, don't worry. Plans for mass castrations are well under way

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/08/young-men-donald-trump-kamala-harris This is a superb article on why the Democrats fucked it with men, informed by Richard Reeves who is the President of the American Institute for Boys and Men. I think his comments are bang on personally, and I say this as someone farther to the left than most people on here. EDIT - One more key excerpt that I feel compelled to add: What men heard from the right was: you’ve got problems, we don’t have solutions. What they heard from the left is: you don’t have problems, you are the problem. I could take excerpts from it all over the place that I agree with but I'm going to pick this one on its own: I presume the conclusion they’re also going to reach is that they can’t run a female candidate for a really long time? I really, I really, I really hope they don’t draw that conclusion. There’s a reason the General Social Survey stopped asking the question about a female candidate in 2010: because it hit 96% support, and it’s even higher among young men. I suppose it’s possible that those men are secretly sexist or racist and won’t tell pollsters that, but that’s an unfalsifiable hypothesis, we can’t know. If Democrats draw the conclusion that it was because it was a female candidate, that will be the wrong conclusion. Empirically. It will insult the male voters they need and it will hobble the careers of female politicians, potentially for a long time.

I mean I agree. Completely. Welcome to Project Naive.

I understand the view but it just feels like weakness to me to let events happen to us and hope for the best. Like we've given up and absolve ourselves of it by trying to rationalise that it was all impossible to start with. It's never going to get better if we take that view, why would it? At best, it can stop getting worse briefly.

Maybe so - is that the answer then, we just admit he completely defeated us and hope he dies soon? Not entirely unlike our view on Putin.

I think so personally in that the overall movement is replicated the world over to varying degrees. We have the spirit of it here. There are differences but this doesn't die with Trump I fear. That energy behind him has to go somewhere.

So on that basis, why not at least consider trying what we're saying

I was just thinking about how I've (amongst others) been asked to come up with policy, strategy and solution to the current situation we find ourselves in - and I suppose for those who've pushed back on the thoughts I had, what do you lot think we should be doing then? Given that the Democrats were just annihilated doing what you think they should do, what is your answer?

Her philosophy has been continuing though, we remain a Neoliberal society. Also I recall reading a piece a while ago about how students were interpreting their university experience differently now that they were being considerably higher costs - they rated professors, demanded more from their courses, they were quite aggressive about getting their money's worth. With everything costing more this seems reasonable. I suppose you could argue that in a world with less excess, there is less charity, both in sentiment and money.

Think we can blame Thatcher for this one. Turned people from citizens into consumers - that was a foundational point in Neoliberalism as I recall.

Sure but he's definitely able to tap into a pre-existing zeitgeist. The democrats have somehow ended up making it look like they're the establishment in this bizarre reality. And they are, some of them, but not to the scale of the republicans. The dems spent over $1bn in this campaign, more than Trump, and were wiped out. We can't just react anymore, we need to assert our playstyle on the opposition 😉

Left wing economic policy would be my starting point but you don't actually need full blown socialism and you especially don't need to carry in wider left wing dogma. Social stuff could be more centrist because we've made more progress in that arena generally (doing so didn't cost shareholder profits). Instead the democrats approach this the other way around. Social stuff is easy, economic reform is hard. People need to see political parties attacking those who make things unfair. Biden got a huge turnout from Democrats only to do next to fuck all while in power. Mind you it can't just be left wing economic policy - it also needs to be attached to an overall vision for the future and a direction to move the country in. The centrists think we're at the end of history and just react to events as they come along. EDIT - I'm gonna add though that it's hardly my job to come up with this. But given that Trump has managed to galvanise support around some manner of vision, I think it's fair to compare the Democrats to what he has achieved.

Sanders isn't the answer either and in fairness I don't think any one single person is. This isn't just a Trump victory, its a win for all the social media dude bros, Musk, Bannon, and more. He didn't solo this, he has a whole toxic movement that supports him. We do not have an equivalent. I was laughed out of the thread a week or so ago for saying we needed left wing equivalents of people like Tate. I know I'm right about that, because those battlegrounds for the heart and soul of young people are completely uncontested by decent people. Our campaigning is lazy and refuses to tackle the real issues. Trump isn't wrong that people hate the establishment. They do. I do. Self serving wankers who stifle meaningful change. Trump is obviously one of them, and will do nothing to combat them, but that's what he feeds on. The establishment, left and right, has failed. Collectively, across many strong actors, it needs to be overturned.

Also seems like some 10m Dem voters stayed home compared to last time? I saw that mentioned at least, haven't verified it. Amazing campaign though.

I have said often enough that genuine and radical change is needed. Doesnt have to be socialist, but needs to truthfully address the issues. They need a vision towards a better future that aims to address the real challenges people face with what now needs to be quite serious change. This has been my position with Labour for years. This whole centrist "careful now" strategy is starting to seriously cost us. I just saw the numbers on young people btw. 56% of men under 29 chose Trump. 56%!!! Incels amirite? It was 41% last time. He also improved, god help me, with young women! (40% compared to 33% last time). What we are doing, is categorically not working. It just isn't.

One other thought on all this - the EU needs to federalise. We cannot waste any more time on the USA, the only reason any of us even care about this is because of how it fucks up the wider Western civilisation. I mean that was our civilisation to start with anyway, and the US can't be trusted to lead it anymore. Europe urgently needs to grow a pair. And we need to get the fuck back into it. I firmly believe a federal EU would be approximately as strong as the US anyway.

Don't always have time for TYT but I think they're spot on with this. they are fucking raging at the Democrats.

The scale of our failure to contain this is actually quite hilarious when you think about it. We're sat here playing by the rules while they're running rings around us.

I struggle with this idea of blaming the voters because I absolutely do blame people in this country who refuse to acknowledge the disaster that Brexit has been. It winds me up no end. But that said... I don't think it's the most effective medium for changing anything, cathartic as it is. I would rather argue that throwing my hands up and yelling at them is something I can do because I've given up, not because I'm trying to change anyone's mind. Changing minds has to be done with a fully inclusive approach that speaks to even some of the murkier concerns that people have, if only to move them beyond their current thinking. It cannot be done by just calling them names and chastising them for being weak or pathetic. The difference there is what we want to do vs what we need to do.