Rayvin

I thought that was bizarre too, and probably more to do with the fact that most have them hadn't been paying attention pre-Corbyn. But having said this, I do think the notion that Labour will not be a left wing party is significant. Maybe centrism is viable again now because the Tories have lurched to the right, but Johnson appears to be trying to head that off and to become the new Blair. I honestly don't mind who wins and have said I'll vote for Starmer, but there is a difference between what we want and what we need. And I'm yet to see any evidence that Starmer has much of a plan to capitalise on the latter. We need a great deal.

I rather fancy that, since Yougov won't have asked anything remotely concerned with Neoliberalism, that your statement isn't supported by anything. What if I argued that equality of opportunity, and the end to oligarchy and domination of the markets was all "fair". EDIT - I stand corrected, it specifically mentions Neoliberalism. Well, I concede then. Everyone wants centrism. This is great news for you, surely? And me, given that beyond not wanting the right in power, I broadly couldn't give a fuck which way this goes anymore.

Define fairness? Or rather, how did Yougov define it?

If she wins, are we happy about it? I've lost track of who I'm supposed to be voting for now in order to reconnect the party with the British people.

He has commendably just signed the US up to the program to plant 1tn trees.

Are there any signs yet that he's likely to retain power? It's what I expect, but that's based on how dismal humanity is right now rather than any actual evidence. If the democrats win it, it'll be a big blow to this stupid nationalist movement that's sweeping the West.

Safe trip, hope you enjoy the day. I checked out one of the Oxford forums and it sounds like a very healthy number of you are coming up. Nice to see that. Lets hope it's a good game.

Aye, Rafa should have played more in line with the aesthetic standard of League One. That's where he went wrong. Some clubs even aspire to remain down there, just because the quality of football is so good. Even when given a free goal in a play off final, they still manage to lose - just so that they can enjoy the scintillating football for one more year. No club like that would ever sully its good name with a manager like Rafa. They prefer to hire true tactical magicians, like the guy who contrived to achieve about twenty 1-1 draws in a single season. And the bloke from the local pub that they've since replaced him with.

I noticed the Daily Mail suggesting that the nation was "healing" now that Brexit had been sorted out. I dont feel that i am, although maybe in some ways it is easier now that it's entirely inevitable, to not obsess about it. Is that healing?

What's the taxi thing about..?

Do you get a sense, from watching it, that any of them at all stand even the most remote chance of overthrowing Boris?

I genuinely don't get the feud between TGQ and J69. It's endured through decades and forum names...

Yeah ok, there's reasonable dislike of Blairism and there's just plain vicious. Celebrating the death of Blair, no.

Lisa Nandy front and centre of your inspirational material I guess?

Actually no, I'm thoroughly enjoying myself with it

Fight fire with fire. Smart. I mean, I wouldn't consider a race to the bottom in stupidity to be smart at all actually, but then I'm stupid.

I think the thing I miss most about Blair and the years associated with him, is that the Labour Party genuinely looked like the adults in the room. They knew what they were doing, where they were going, no soul searching. They had a vision, and ok, it only had a 12 year shelf life, but it was a very stable 12 years. There is no one within the Labour Party now that looks anything like that. We're all kind of hoping that Starmer might be about to pull us around somehow just by virtue of appearing competent, but he's just another opportunistic leadership candidate - he doesn't have a plan. He has no committed and functional team of MPs with a clear vision behind him. He will be taking over a divisive mess caused by a party that no longer believes, deep down, that it should be a united entity. I mean come on, he's not going to win next time out. Labour has no one who could. The only person I genuinely believe could restore some Blairite semblance of order is Cooper, and she isn't running - and even if she was, the paucity of talent within Labour is staggering.

It was politically inept, but I guess they can comfort themselves with the notion that it was true to their principles.

The PLP had to make an inconsequential and doomed rebellion that only ensured that the Corbyn project would last longer as it entrenched attitudes amongst the membership, and which ultimately led to all the name calling now? Please advise what on earth that ridiculously childish display achieved? EDIT - I just checked, and it turns out that Miliband's move was "overwhelmingly backed by a special conference the year before it was implemented". So it's not like one man took us blindly into populism, the whole fucking party signed up to it.

Blame for what?

No no, I'm the Tory because I'm enabling them. I'll vote for Starmer to be the next defeated Labour leader too.

I said earlier it was a needless dig at Blair. Do you want me to say something stronger? It's not as if she's a high profile MP or anything, she's just a fringe left winger. I believe that the moderates within the party will probably win this fight, and get Starmer elected - but all of this rounding on the left wing side is going to set up a siege mentality that is going to create problems. If the moderates win, it has to be with the consent of the left. Let the fringe left wingers make their comments, it's not like there aren't plenty of people in the moderate wing calling Corbyn a Tory enabler so let's not pretend this is one way traffic. In fact, it's been the moderates over the course of the past 4 years who have been the divisive ones. They set the entire PLP against the membership ffs. But now of course it's all about unity because now, the moderates are returning to save the day. Hypocritical bullshit. Have tantrums, get your way, close up shop.

What treatment is that then? You make snarky comments consistently rather than tackling actual arguments and then get dismissive comments thrown at you? ewerk spends more than enough of his time baiting me as he well knows. Bloody hell man.

As an aside, this article by Tim Farron is interesting, concerning what needs to happen for the Tories to be ousted. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jan/17/progressives-defeat-tories-next-election-2024?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard In a nutshell we abandon the idea of working with the SNP, Labour stands down in about 100 rural seats that they will never win but the LDs could, and the LDs stand down more or less everywhere else. At least I think that's what he's saying. EDIT - would have the benefit of allowing Labour to remain "pure" ideologically while reassuring everyone outside of urban centres that there was a steadying hand on the wheel. Presumably for a single coalition government within which we can achieve electoral reform.

Agree but there have always been movements to improve it. And even in recent times we can see unified visions from western countries. Resisting Nazi Germany, then the Soviets. Before that, for Britain, Empire. Now we have nothing but negative fear driven threats because the political class have run out of ideas. So you get warnings about not leaving the EU, warnings about Scottish independence, warnings about socialism, even climate change can be added to this list. Because as far as the political class was concerned, we'd arrived. End of history. There was no positive vision to sell apart from 'more of the same'.