Rayvin

I mean I agree. Completely. Welcome to Project Naive.

I understand the view but it just feels like weakness to me to let events happen to us and hope for the best. Like we've given up and absolve ourselves of it by trying to rationalise that it was all impossible to start with. It's never going to get better if we take that view, why would it? At best, it can stop getting worse briefly.

Maybe so - is that the answer then, we just admit he completely defeated us and hope he dies soon? Not entirely unlike our view on Putin.

I think so personally in that the overall movement is replicated the world over to varying degrees. We have the spirit of it here. There are differences but this doesn't die with Trump I fear. That energy behind him has to go somewhere.

So on that basis, why not at least consider trying what we're saying

I was just thinking about how I've (amongst others) been asked to come up with policy, strategy and solution to the current situation we find ourselves in - and I suppose for those who've pushed back on the thoughts I had, what do you lot think we should be doing then? Given that the Democrats were just annihilated doing what you think they should do, what is your answer?

Her philosophy has been continuing though, we remain a Neoliberal society. Also I recall reading a piece a while ago about how students were interpreting their university experience differently now that they were being considerably higher costs - they rated professors, demanded more from their courses, they were quite aggressive about getting their money's worth. With everything costing more this seems reasonable. I suppose you could argue that in a world with less excess, there is less charity, both in sentiment and money.

Think we can blame Thatcher for this one. Turned people from citizens into consumers - that was a foundational point in Neoliberalism as I recall.

Sure but he's definitely able to tap into a pre-existing zeitgeist. The democrats have somehow ended up making it look like they're the establishment in this bizarre reality. And they are, some of them, but not to the scale of the republicans. The dems spent over $1bn in this campaign, more than Trump, and were wiped out. We can't just react anymore, we need to assert our playstyle on the opposition 😉

Left wing economic policy would be my starting point but you don't actually need full blown socialism and you especially don't need to carry in wider left wing dogma. Social stuff could be more centrist because we've made more progress in that arena generally (doing so didn't cost shareholder profits). Instead the democrats approach this the other way around. Social stuff is easy, economic reform is hard. People need to see political parties attacking those who make things unfair. Biden got a huge turnout from Democrats only to do next to fuck all while in power. Mind you it can't just be left wing economic policy - it also needs to be attached to an overall vision for the future and a direction to move the country in. The centrists think we're at the end of history and just react to events as they come along. EDIT - I'm gonna add though that it's hardly my job to come up with this. But given that Trump has managed to galvanise support around some manner of vision, I think it's fair to compare the Democrats to what he has achieved.

Sanders isn't the answer either and in fairness I don't think any one single person is. This isn't just a Trump victory, its a win for all the social media dude bros, Musk, Bannon, and more. He didn't solo this, he has a whole toxic movement that supports him. We do not have an equivalent. I was laughed out of the thread a week or so ago for saying we needed left wing equivalents of people like Tate. I know I'm right about that, because those battlegrounds for the heart and soul of young people are completely uncontested by decent people. Our campaigning is lazy and refuses to tackle the real issues. Trump isn't wrong that people hate the establishment. They do. I do. Self serving wankers who stifle meaningful change. Trump is obviously one of them, and will do nothing to combat them, but that's what he feeds on. The establishment, left and right, has failed. Collectively, across many strong actors, it needs to be overturned.

Also seems like some 10m Dem voters stayed home compared to last time? I saw that mentioned at least, haven't verified it. Amazing campaign though.

I have said often enough that genuine and radical change is needed. Doesnt have to be socialist, but needs to truthfully address the issues. They need a vision towards a better future that aims to address the real challenges people face with what now needs to be quite serious change. This has been my position with Labour for years. This whole centrist "careful now" strategy is starting to seriously cost us. I just saw the numbers on young people btw. 56% of men under 29 chose Trump. 56%!!! Incels amirite? It was 41% last time. He also improved, god help me, with young women! (40% compared to 33% last time). What we are doing, is categorically not working. It just isn't.

One other thought on all this - the EU needs to federalise. We cannot waste any more time on the USA, the only reason any of us even care about this is because of how it fucks up the wider Western civilisation. I mean that was our civilisation to start with anyway, and the US can't be trusted to lead it anymore. Europe urgently needs to grow a pair. And we need to get the fuck back into it. I firmly believe a federal EU would be approximately as strong as the US anyway.

Don't always have time for TYT but I think they're spot on with this. they are fucking raging at the Democrats.

The scale of our failure to contain this is actually quite hilarious when you think about it. We're sat here playing by the rules while they're running rings around us.

I struggle with this idea of blaming the voters because I absolutely do blame people in this country who refuse to acknowledge the disaster that Brexit has been. It winds me up no end. But that said... I don't think it's the most effective medium for changing anything, cathartic as it is. I would rather argue that throwing my hands up and yelling at them is something I can do because I've given up, not because I'm trying to change anyone's mind. Changing minds has to be done with a fully inclusive approach that speaks to even some of the murkier concerns that people have, if only to move them beyond their current thinking. It cannot be done by just calling them names and chastising them for being weak or pathetic. The difference there is what we want to do vs what we need to do.

It's not about Harris, the failure is far bigger than her. Though I think one could argue that dithering over Biden being able to run or not and then airdropping her into candidacy without any internal democratic process was probably not the play. In my view though, this wasn't lost in the campaign. It was lost in the 4 years of Biden in power. Its the longer term systemic rot in the Dems that is the issue. Simply defining themselves by not being the other side worked once, but doesn't appear to work twice. Hence my view that Labour should take note.

Exactly, exactly, exactly. We need to wake the fuck up to this.

This is complete nonsense. When Corbyn lost to Johnson, i seem to recall him being blamed for that here. Why are the Democrats lifted up to some level where their actions and choices don't matter, they're just helpless little centrist victims? I don't even think this is about her being a woman, neither side made any fuss about that at all really. I think once the demographic data comes out we'll have a clearer view on things but I watched a lot of content overnight from actual Democrat politicians chastising their party over disinterest in the groups they have "lost". Minorities, men, people of colour in general. It's a huge, well funded, corporation friendly, media supported political party. It is not a victim, it's a fucking joke. And it's been in power for the past 4 years, it had the ability to make a difference, it just chose not to. Biden would have been annihilated if he ran too. 4 more years because of their hubris...

Biden was worthless. All that lack of achievement to avoid rocking the boat and we lose anyway. This is my exact fear with Labour. May as well have had Trump last time tbh, least it would be over by now. The West needs a progressive vision that can appeal to people, we can't just scream "incel' at everyone and call it a day. Our entire civilisation is starting to come into the crosshairs now. I'm so fucking done with the Democrats. Worthless party. Absolutely fucking useless, they've had absolutely fuck all to offer since Obama. Now they've lost all 3 chambers potentially, meaning God fucking knows what Trump manages to get through. Heaven help the USA. The combined political acumen of the Democratic party undone by a TV madman. Hopeless. Agreenwith Gemmill though, just need to turn it the fuck off and give up.

North Carolina to Trump. That was a state that was in play to swing, so that's a big win for Trump.

I mean I'm listening to TYT as I go along here so it's possible that I'm feeding off their panic, but they are definitely starting to panic. We'll see I guess but... fucking hell.

CNN calling Iowa for Trump... This feels like yet another centrist masterpiece.

North Carolina starting to look Trump destined... I think we might be fucked here.