Phil

Spot on. So why did we finish in the bottom half of the PL more often than not under Shepherd? qualified for europe more than any club bar 4, including 2 Champions League runs. How many before or since have matched that ? But more often that not we finished in the bottom half. So were the clubs above us being better run? Because there weren't many sugar daddies in those days. Qualified for europe more than any club bar 4. The same 4 clubs are the only 4 who had a higher average position too. End of. End of you repeating the same flawed statements over and over again?

Can I change your name to Comical Dekka? It sounds stupid but we actually are. Do you think Shepherd would of been able to pay off our debts? Ashley had to pay off a large part of the debt (57m - from the stadium rebuild) because the financial agreement Shepard had in place was non-transferable. So under Shepard the debt was not an imediate issue.

Last year we made a loss of £650,000 a week, so things are looking up.

We have a big difference on what constitutes a well run club. Villa make massive losses and pay well over the odds for players. I can't be bothered to work out how much he's blown, but last time i did it in Jan 09 it was £64m NET and their best players were Barry and Agbonlahor, who both came through the academy. I dont think any of their player could get into Manu, Chelsea or Arsenals starting 11. And i bet their wage bill is massive as paying over the odd normally equates to excessive wages. All this and no trophies to show for it. Everton have been up for sale for years, which is why they've never pushed on and never will. Also, they got very lucky with Fellaini as they'd have never had the money to do it if man-city hadn't sniped their prefered choice - Jo. Spurs Ashley/Wise treat Keegan like royalty compared to how Levy/Comolli micro-managed Jol and Ramos. I still believe listening to levy is why Ashley has made his mistakes. The best way to gain long term success is to invest massively in the youth team. Most teams best players come through the ranks. A lot of them were brought in 16 - 18. Liverpool - gerrad, carragher Man U - Rooney and Ronoldo both signed at 18, Beckham signed at 16. Chelsea - Terry Arsenal - signed Fabragas at 16

I think people seem to believe that Ashley bought the club and on day 2 was told "oh theres another £150m debt you didnt know about". Thats not the case, he knew exactly what the debt position was, he merely didnt know that some of it had to be paid back immediately. Being asked to pay £57 million is a big deal....

Very true, 7 full time managers in 10 years speaks volumes.

Nah, that was the only issue. Ashley's money men missed it during due dilligence. http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/se....premierleague1

I think what he's saying is though that recession etc. has severely cut the amount of spare cash Ashley has hanging around. That said, the thing that really restricted this more than anything was tying up so much capital unnecessarily in clearing the debts with one fell swoop. Absolutely no need to do this and it compounded our problems last January, when we needed a quality player or two coming in and it also meant the impact of relegation was that bit greater imo. I think i recall reading debt had to be paid off because the mortgage on the ground expansion was non-transferable. edit: yeah that was the thing the two fatties were having a go at each other over; http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/se....premierleague1

Very true, but is anyone making excuses for Ashley? Its no more far fetched to claim Freddie was financially inept as it is to assume Ashley wants to ruin the club.

the high wage bills and high league position come together as part of the package. If you want high league positions you have to pay high wages. The myth I am talking about is that the club signed over the hill players, didn't sign young players of potential at the time with their best years ahead of them, and don't dispute it or I will supply a big list to prove my point. Yes when you are in Europe the high wage bill is offset by earnings. We were not in Europe. There are two clear sides to Freddies time at the club, 2004 - 2007 is when the nay sayers widely believe the rot started, note 2005 - 2007 we started to make a loss, which with our debts made spending our way out imposible. Here are most of the big signings in that time and you believe this sh*te justified the wage bill we had?? Mark Viduka Joey Barton Geremi Alan Smith Damien Duff Obafemi Martins Antoine Sibierski Celestine Babayaro Jean Alain Boumsong Amdy Faye Scott Parker Emre Belozoglu Albert Luque Michael Owen We had £70m debt a spiriling wage bill and had run out of credit lines, so we had to hire Fat Sam. Who regardless of your thoughts on Freddie - was a bad appointment and there no way freddie would have kept him playing that brand of football. With a shoestring budget which was largley servicing debt, so there was only one way we were going. If not down last season it would be 2010 or 2011. Either way i think we'll be in a better poisition next year under Ashley than we would under Fred.

Our 'aim' should always be europe as it's the only way to attract top players. please tell us how it is possible to do this without paying the going rate ie top dollar, and how many clubs are doing it without being in debt There's a massive difference in paying the rate and paying massively over the odd. Doing the latter you end up with one of the largest wage bills in the league and fighting relegation. Freddy was a big fan of buy a teams best player and in doing so we ended up paying massively over the odd. Until we hit europe we should be looking for teams that need/want to sell or players that can't make the first team as they have better ahead of them. There are plenty of players out their that fit this bill. apart from that actually being a good policy there is no justification for making such a comment, unless you can prove it and also give examples. I can give you lots that were without question players of the managers choice and also proved to be very good buys, most of whom were young and had their best years in front of them which kills stone dead another myth that has done the rounds about our transfer policy during those years. The high wage bills and our league positions are well documented, so it aint a myth.

Our 'aim' should always be europe as it's the only way to attract top players. please tell us how it is possible to do this without paying the going rate ie top dollar, and how many clubs are doing it without being in debt There's a massive difference in paying the rate and paying massively over the odd. Doing the latter you end up with one of the largest wage bills in the league and fighting relegation. Freddy was a big fan of buy a teams best player and in doing so we ended up paying massively over the odd. Until we hit europe we should be looking for teams that need/want to sell or players that can't make the first team as they have better ahead of them. There are plenty of players out their that fit this bill.

Our 'aim' should always be europe as it's the only way to attract top players.

Barton, Nolan, Smith, Jonas, Enrique and Coloccini. Not to mention Geremi who we've only just shifted and only then because he was nearly out of contract (wouldn't be surprised if we paid the rest of his contract off in order to get rid). All on Ashley's watch. My estimates would be; 50k Smith 60k Barton 35k Nolan 50k Jonas 30k Enrique 40k Coloccini total of 13.78m a year. I doubt anyone else in the squad is on over 25k. Even if you over estimate the squad wages it's hard to get them over 30m. This is a far cry from the £70m last year. When you take into account our income of £100m last year. We are definately in a good position to rebuild. I reckon they're conservatives estimates not even taking into account the likes of Nacho and Xisco. He's signed average players on average wages since we went down but that's hardly what I'd call 'playing hardball' on every contract. Obviously the wage bill is down now but that's just a necessity due to relegation. Also, Milner is brought up a lot and it was good money, but we got peanuts for Given even though the richest club in the whole fucking world were after him so I don't agree with you there. Guthrie is on 5k, Bassong was on 5k. S.Taylor contact talks dragged on for ages, as did Michael Owens. Sounds like he's shrewd. Also, if you look at the money we got in for the players, i think he did quite well given all the buying clubs knew we had to sell. 9m Martins, 9m for Bassong, 4m for Duff (i'd have let him go for free at the end of last season), 2m Beye. As for Given, I didn't mind his sale and thought 8m was probably as much as we'd have gotten. The real issue for me was not including Michael Johnson as part of the deal, or spending the money, but thats a footballing debate not a financial one. The point is the books are in a better shape, most of the deadwood is gone, and wages are low enough we can add to the squad without incurring debt. Things are looking up.

Barton, Nolan, Smith, Jonas, Enrique and Coloccini. Not to mention Geremi who we've only just shifted and only then because he was nearly out of contract (wouldn't be surprised if we paid the rest of his contract off in order to get rid). All on Ashley's watch. My estimates would be; 50k Smith 60k Barton 35k Nolan 50k Jonas 30k Enrique 40k Coloccini total of 13.78m a year. I doubt anyone else in the squad is on over 25k. Even if you over estimate the squad wages it's hard to get them over 30m. This is a far cry from the £70m last year. When you take into account our income of £100m last year. We are definately in a good position to rebuild.

I doubt there are many players on high money. Delboy has played hard ball on every contract, which is what led to Milner leaving and us getting 12m. The press make things up as they go along. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...uth/8519800.stm

I've never understood your argument 'Shepard was great because his predecessors were worse' it's seems like a flawed debate.

not much chance of him playing a big tournament for Wales though is there? Makes sense to me to sack off a bunch games that will mostly end in defeat for someone his age. Even though he has only played 8 games this year? Surely he'd want to play a bit more. thats the way of Mike apparently. Its all clear now. Running the club "like a business", which was widely wanted a few years ago, is signing players on 3.5 year contracts that are good in this league but not good enough for the premiership. Signing Routledge on 3.5 year contract and paying him peanut is bad in your book? Your seat must have restricted viewing as he's been one of our best players. Koumas would certainly improve the team, but with Barton set to return soon i'm not sure it's worth taking the risk on him rocking the boat.

Swansea played keep ball in midfield and created no more chance than us. Very harsh having a go at Hughton, we took a point which was more than any manager could have got out of team that simply didn't turn up. Nolan might score goal and play some blinding passes, but he's a passenger for the rest of the game, roll on Bartons return.

Anyone know why we can't recall Xisco, seems like an ideal time to break him in.

He may have been a lemon in the prem, but he's given a decent return this season, which is a lot more than i can say about Barton (also 6m).

I wonder whether Keegan was just looking more money or wanted to carry on in order to clear his name properly, I guess we'll never know. Ashleys offer would have had loads of 'commercial' strings attached. Probably involving Wise handing over a large comical cheque. He filled for 25m so what makes you think otherwise? What are your thoughts on Owen , Phil? He lost his pace and passion and never really felt like our player. I don't hold a grudge against him, but watching him sit on the bench at man-u while Defoe is scoring for fun does make me laugh.

He filled for 25m so what makes you think otherwise?

LOL @ Armchair Pundit! I recieved a barrage of insults because I pointed out people needed to read the actual tribunal report and not just Keegans comments. Irony is your signature. Update it you look stupid. In case you are actually 'that' stupid, that is a quote from Keegan about the report.

No, you're being a contrary prick is what you're doing. I crave attention and a girl to kiss PM From Phil:- You sad pathetic fuck-wit, get a life. Bit of sand in the vag Phillip? Fuck off you prat! You never add anything of worth to any debate.