AgentAxeman

bit touchy this morning are we? tbf switzerlands population is only 7.8 million (according to wiki). if we had the same process here (petitions) then the number of signatories would have to be proportionally higher i would guess. maybe 1 million? hypothetical question i know. apparently Italy's right wing parties are trying to get in on the act as well. not much of a shock really.

I know its from the Mail but it raises a couple of interesting questions "What lesson does the Swiss ban on minarets hold for Britain? British voters can only dream of such an opportunity: any initiative supported by 100,000 or more signatories is put to the nation in a referendum. Yet over the weekend, the Swiss benefited from just such a vote. And they made their beliefs known in no uncertain terms. For contrary to the advice of the Christian clergy and many politicians, 57.5 per cent of the Swiss electorate voted to ban the construction of minarets above the nation's Muslim mosques and prayer halls. The initiative was the handiwork of the Right-wing Swiss Freedom Party, whose campaign poster featured the red and white Swiss flag on which were superimposed a woman in a burqa and minarets bristling like ballistic missiles. The clear implication was that minarets were 'symbols of power', a fear indirectly fuelled by the Turkish prime minister who recently stupidly described minarets as 'bayonets of the faith'. Fear of this prospect resonates in a country where many Muslims are from Turkey. That a majority of Swiss should seek to prohibit the erection of minarets, while emphatically retaining Muslim freedom of worship, is surprising. After all, a minaret is no more objectionable in itself than any other example of religious architecture; indeed, like church spires, they are usually extremely graceful. Switzerland, like many members of the Muslim faith, also prides itself on its tradition of tolerance. It is the birthplace of the International Red Cross and the Geneva Conventions against egregious human rights abuses, and its diplomats play an important role in mediating many global conflicts. Nor has Switzerland experienced the suburban strife of disaffected Muslim youth in France or the tragic terrorist bombings which have struck Britain, Spain and the U.S. The country's 400,000 Muslims also constitute a mere 5percent of the population and come from largely sophisticated, European countries such as Bosnia or Turkey, where a moderate brand of Islam is the norm. As a result, Switzerland has often been quick to defend its Muslim population. An earlier initiative - also sponsored by the Swiss People's Party - for example, sought to make the naturalisation of immigrants subject to a local vote. This campaign was accompanied by a poster showing several dark skinned hands trying to grab piles of Swiss passports. But the nation didn't buy into its message, and the campaign was rejected by a large majority of Swiss voters. The latest vote, however, suggests that something has changed. Switzerland is certainly going through a crisis of confidence. The country has been shaken by international attempts to make transparent its ultra secret - and often abused - financial regulations. Its national air carrier, Swissair has collapsed. And the credit crunch has taken a heavy toll on this nation of bankers. minaret But far bigger and more dangerous issues are also behind the vote. Indeed, Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy have already acknowledged that the Swiss vote represented widespread anxieties across Europe about the erosion of traditional cultural identities. And in many countries, such as Britain, these concerns are simply not being addressed. Concerned they will be branded racist if they raise the issue, many 'liberal' politicians would rather brush the immigration debate under the carpet. That means that radicals can capitalise on their silence. A predictable chorus of vehement anti-Muslims - including the French National Front, the Italian Northern League, and Geert Wilder's Party for Freedom in the Netherlands - have already celebrated the Swiss decision. Deprived of mainstream politicians who will address their concerns, it seems, people will turn towards more radical alternatives. Indeed, what has most shaken the Swiss liberal elite is that Left-wing feminists played a prominent part in the successful campaign, notably prominent feminist author Julia Onken, who sent 4,000 emails warning that Islam tacitly condoned the burqa, forced marriage, honour killings and marital violence against women. The elegant Ms Onken is not some raving Islamophobe, but a widely respected figure. This is a shame. Islam is a largely peaceful faith and there is much an increasingly amoral West could learn from its veneration of family and the elderly. But unless we have a grownup, democratic debate about Islam's impact on Western society, we risk a similar backlash here. For there are certainly questions to answer. The presence of mosques, with or without minarets, but usually accompanied by a proliferation of Islamic bookshops, can dramatically change the surrounding neighbourhood. Bars and pubs close down, and more Muslims move in. A ghetto is created and a socialcultural monopoly emerges. As the traditional Christian culture all but disappears, the minority of indigenous British remaining understandably feel confused and threatened. Of course, people of all faiths would rather have devout Muslims going about their worship, than idiot youths urinating on war memorials or comatose girls lying half naked in a pool of vomit on the pavements. For make no mistake, under our current government, Britain has undergone a colossal decline in public decorum. But no one wants to see their own culture entirely eradicated, especially when a vocal minority actively preaches hate against them. This must be addressed. As we saw to devastating effect at Finsbury Park mosque in London, which became a breeding ground for terrorists, a small number of radicals can transform a legitimate and peaceful place of worship into something altogether more sinister. Non-Muslims shouldn't be able to dictate what goes on in such places of worship. But they do have a right to monitor what is preached and by whom, especially if there is the remotest chance that this might be inflammatory. The French state has been robust in ensuring that extremists do not get a toehold in such places. By contrast, our limpwristed ruling class has failed to rein in the extremists, allowing them to ride roughshod over our dearly held traditions of tolerance and justice for fearing of being branded Islamophobic. This must change. The moderate peaceful Islamic majority - and it really is a majority - must also act. They must get a grip on the radical militants who try to stir up hate in their community and show self-restraint when advancing claims for such things as Sharia law, which threaten the fundamental identity of their host country. This has even been acknowledged by such Islamic authorities as Ali Gomaa, the Grand Mufti of Egypt, and his Indonesian equivalent, Maskuri Abdillah, who have both condemned the Swiss vote while urging Muslims to exercise restraint. Whether or not mosques have minarets is ultimately a cosmetic issue. But it is nevertheless one that has become a symbol of far deeper and more widespread grievances. The Swiss have been forced to recognise that many of their people are worried about Islam's unquestioned, undemocratic encroachments into Western society. And unless our own Government now takes note and instigates a rational but robust debate on the subject, we can expect far more trouble ahead"

"I've had an affair with Tiger Woods, claims cocktail waitress Tiger Woods was last night facing claims he had a lengthy affair with a second woman. A cocktail waitress has told a magazine she had 20 sexual encounters with the married golfer over 31 months. The allegation came as Woods was charged over a mystery car crash linked to claims of an affair with the first woman, nightclub hostess Rachel Uchitel. Woods, 33, is thought to have been knocked unconscious when he hit a water hydrant and a tree early last Friday. And the father of two's refusal to explain exactly what happened has fuelled speculation that he has something to hide. A celebrity website alleges that his Swedish wife, Elin, 29, scratched his face and chased after his car with a golf club after a bust-up over Miss Uchitel. The cocktail waitress, Jaimee Grubbs, claims she has an answerphone recording and text messages as evidence of her relationship with Woods. 'He told me just last month quietly and secretly we will always be together,' she told US Weekly. 'He gave me the impression he and his wife had separate rooms.' Miss Grubbs claimed they first had sex in a hotel room in San Diego but she did not give a date. 'He just grabbed and kissed me and we started taking our clothes off and had sex,' she alleged. 'Afterwards, he was like "you should go". He told me that he has a hard time sleeping in the same bed with somebody. 'We never talked about golf. Sometimes we talked about his stressful life. He told me his life was overwhelming.' The 24-year-old from Los Angeles claimed the affair began in April 2007. She is said to have photos as well as more than 300 texts from him. Spotlight: Rachel Uchitel claims the story about her and Woods was made up by two other girls The magazine says it plans to publish online the answerphone message, in which Woods allegedly suggests his wife might suspect him of infidelity. Woods also allegedly messaged the waitress last week - three days before his crash - to warn her that his wife had gone through his phone and 'may call you'. She claimed the golfer texted her in September to say: 'I will wear you out soon. You just need some attention from me.' In October, another alleged text said: 'Change of plans. Meet me at the island hotel. It's a little safer. Got us a room for the night. Room 905.' Meanwhile, Florida Highway Patrol said it had completed its probe into Woods's accident and would not be bringing any criminal charges. Spokesman Kim Montes said there had been no claims of domestic abuse and insufficient evidence to seek a court order to look at the golfer's medical records. Woods will simply have to pay a £100 fine for careless driving with four points on his licence. Miss Uchitel told the New York Post yesterday that she was no homewrecker. 'I have not had an affair with Tiger Woods. It's horrible to Tiger's family,' she added. 'His wife must feel horrible. The worst part of it, it's not true.' She said she had welcomed Woods to a Manhattan club where she worked as director of VIP services and met him 'for two seconds'. Miss Uchitel, whose fiance died in the 9/11 attacks, said the source of the story was an acquaintance she had met just twice. Woods, who has won 14 major tournaments, picked up £66million in prize money and endorsements last year."

not quite, its a white woman assaulting a black man!!

I used to do the same when I was interviewing with anyone who had taken 'a gap year'. Well it started like that anyway and over a period of time I added many little niggles which would result in the cv hitting the bin. whats wrong with taking a gap year? genuine question.

Quite the opposite, the Germans went about it with gusto and vigour and in their world renowned efficent manner. To this day they busy themselves watching each other and noting if No.5 hasn't changed to his 'winter wheels' or Wolfgang down the road seems to have too big a car (Is he paying his tax??) etc..Essentially a country full of boring and over officious cunts with an eye to correctness and status and all the tedium that goes with it. A humourless pack of automatons fresh out of the black forest, riddled with angst and guilt. Only the Swiss are more boring. Who do I blame for the war crimes? The Germans not Hitler, the were asking for it and imo almost willed Hitler into existence. A dark moody race that can nerver be fully trusted. The British invented concentration camps yup, to subjugate the Boers in S.Africa. they put all the Boer farmers wives and kids in the camps. conditions were pretty bad in these camps and there were quite a few deaths from disease but the British didnt go out of their way to exterminate them. Perhaps the name was invented around that time or as a result of that (not sure tbh) but similar camps existed before that so you couldn't even say the British invented them imo. "The Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. defines concentration camp as: a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Kitchener during the South African war of 1899-1902; one for the internment of political prisoners, foreign nationals, etc., esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939-45. Literally, a Concentration Camp is a place where enemies, perceived undesirables and others are "concentrated", or all placed together, in one controlled environment, usually very unpleasantly. Similar camps existed earlier, such as in the United States (concentration camps for Cherokee and other Native Americans in the 1830s), in Cuba (1868–78) and in the Philippines (1898–1901) by Spain under the Restoration and the US respectively[5]. The term finds its roots in the "reconcentration camps" set up in Cuba by Valeriano Weyler in 1897 to quell opposition to Spanish rule in Cuba. During the Second Boer War (1899-1902), the term "concentration camp" was used to describe camps operated by the British in South Africa.[6] Ostensibly conceived as a form of humanitarian aid to the families whose farms had been destroyed in the fighting, the camps were used to confine and control large numbers of civilians as part of a scorched earth tactic. Polish historian Władysław Konopczyński has suggested the first concentration camps were actually created in the 18th century, during Bar Confederation, when Russians organized 3 concentration camps in Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth for Polish rebel captives, where internees awaited deportation on to Siberia. [7] Use of the word concentration comes from the idea of concentrating a group of people who are in some way undesirable in one place, where they can be watched by those who incarcerated them. For example, in a time of insurgency, potential supporters of the insurgents are placed where they cannot provide them with supplies or information."

Quite the opposite, the Germans went about it with gusto and vigour and in their world renowned efficent manner. To this day they busy themselves watching each other and noting if No.5 hasn't changed to his 'winter wheels' or Wolfgang down the road seems to have too big a car (Is he paying his tax??) etc..Essentially a country full of boring and over officious cunts with an eye to correctness and status and all the tedium that goes with it. A humourless pack of automatons fresh out of the black forest, riddled with angst and guilt. Only the Swiss are more boring. Who do I blame for the war crimes? The Germans not Hitler, the were asking for it and imo almost willed Hitler into existence. A dark moody race that can nerver be fully trusted. The British invented concentration camps yup, to subjugate the Boers in S.Africa. they put all the Boer farmers wives and kids in the camps. conditions were pretty bad in these camps and there were quite a few deaths from disease but the British didnt go out of their way to exterminate them.

Quite the opposite, the Germans went about it with gusto and vigour and in their world renowned efficent manner. To this day they busy themselves watching each other and noting if No.5 hasn't changed to his 'winter wheels' or Wolfgang down the road seems to have too big a car (Is he paying his tax??) etc..Essentially a country full of boring and over officious cunts with an eye to correctness and status and all the tedium that goes with it. A humourless pack of automatons fresh out of the black forest, riddled with angst and guilt. Only the Swiss are more boring. Who do I blame for the war crimes? The Germans not Hitler, the were asking for it and imo almost willed Hitler into existence. A dark moody race that can nerver be fully trusted. Nice uniforms though Aye. not as nice as the italians tho. they had STYLE......................

Beardsley - 755apps (237) goals Sheringham - 760 apps (289) goals Zola - 599apps (192) goals All averaged around 1 in 3. Not bad for a second striker very true, but thats not the point. you need different kinds of strikers. you cant just judge on goals. kevin davies is a mint striker, so is carlos tevez but they dont score many

what about the likes of Beardsley/Sheringham/Zola who didnt score shitloads but provided shitloads for others? must admit that Zamora is crap like!

I believe, but am no expert, that you would be prevented from doing so. I think you would have to prove that it comes under 'health and safety' regulations to be able to sidestep it. Actually, you could easily do that given that's how they are banning gambling in some places, so you would be able to. But should you have to jump through loop-holes? HF - I know you're smart enough to see that that's dangerous thinking, I'm not sure I want to get into the gritty details though. That's the problem of having fun in these threads, real danger of serious conversation. AMEN to that!!

so how many countries are on the nuke list now Parky?

thats only the new testament isnt it? the old testament is way older (hence the name) but im not certain anyone knows the true date of origin for christianity. i was under the impression that Islam as a faith came into being in the 7/8th century? Not sure what that's got to do with the persecution of muslims in Switzerland today though. Even if Islam did spread around christian countries 15 centuries ago, do you think the spread of christianity to those countries had been any less violent previously? You sound like Nick Griffin when you start selectively choosing the point in history from when you want the line drawn in the sand. Why not put a ban in place to stop the growth of christianity so we can remain the pagans we originally were? Ironic to hear people bemoan the intolerance of muslims while not tolerating muslim churches. whoooah big lad, high horse stop!!! wtf?? why am i being compared to Nick Griffin? the comparison of religion was not the original topic of this post. in fact, you're the one who originally cast the christians as invaders in muslim countries. my answer was simply a retort to that obviouslly religiouslly motivated statement. please point out where i have 'bemoaned the intolerance of muslims'? Because Nick Griffin made a tit of himself on Question Time harking back to the exact point in time when Britain became white and dismissing any history prior to that. I only cast the christians as invaders to redress the balance after you cast them as unfortunate victims of the spread of Islam across the middle East. As you say, all of that gets away from the point of the original post. Which when you said "at least there's one functioning democracy left", i assumed meant you want a vote on banning a specific religion. If you have no problem with it, why do you want a referendum? I didnt cast Christians or Muslims as anything. i didnt write the original article, its copied and pasted off the BBC website. whats wrong with my statement of theres one functioning democracy left? the fact that the swiss government has listened to the popular vote kinda proves the point of the statement. the popular vote wins. thats what democracy is. and i have no desire to have a referendum on the building of minarets in this country. i dont believe i've asked for a referendum anywhere in this topic? where did that statement come from? as i said earlier, religion was not the original topic here. it was the fact that democracy was seen in action at a time when we see very little of it!

thats only the new testament isnt it? the old testament is way older (hence the name) but im not certain anyone knows the true date of origin for christianity. i was under the impression that Islam as a faith came into being in the 7/8th century? Not sure what that's got to do with the persecution of muslims in Switzerland today though. Even if Islam did spread around christian countries 15 centuries ago, do you think the spread of christianity to those countries had been any less violent previously? You sound like Nick Griffin when you start selectively choosing the point in history from when you want the line drawn in the sand. Why not put a ban in place to stop the growth of christianity so we can remain the pagans we originally were? Ironic to hear people bemoan the intolerance of muslims while not tolerating muslim churches. whoooah big lad, high horse stop!!! wtf?? why am i being compared to Nick Griffin? the comparison of religion was not the original topic of this post. in fact, you're the one who originally cast the christians as invaders in muslim countries. my answer was simply a retort to that obviouslly religiouslly motivated statement. please point out where i have 'bemoaned the intolerance of muslims'?

thats only the new testament isnt it? the old testament is way older (hence the name) but im not certain anyone knows the true date of origin for christianity. i was under the impression that Islam as a faith came into being in the 7/8th century? hey I am probably wrong you know, religion is not my stong point as for the new/old testament thing I thought that christianity dealt with new and the jews had the old possibly, like you Andrew i have little knowledge on the subject of religion. imo theyre all a bit 'nutty' anyway!

thats only the new testament isnt it? the old testament is way older (hence the name) but im not certain anyone knows the true date of origin for christianity. i was under the impression that Islam as a faith came into being in the 7/8th century?

Damn right!! edit: btw Happy, how many of those countries were Christian before the Islam faith came into being?

Swiss referendum 'reflects unease with Islam' As a Swiss referendum backs a ban on the building of minarets, the BBC's Islamic affairs analyst Roger Hardy looks at the often uneasy relationship between Islam and Europe. Swiss People's Party poster against minarets The campaign against minarets was led by the Swiss People's Party It might be argued that Switzerland is a special case without much relevance to the rest of Europe. It is true enough that the country has its own individual form of popular democracy - and that it is home to only 320,000 Muslims, between 4% and 5% of the population. But it is not just in Switzerland that the presence of growing Muslim communities has polarised opinion. A series of controversies from the Rushdie affair 20 years ago to the more recent row over Danish cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad have reflected the unease that many Europeans feel about this relatively new Muslim presence. This is not confined to a few tabloid newspapers or a few xenophobic right-wing parties. It is an Islamophobia driven by a variety of factors. Since the attacks of 9/11 in the United States, and the bombings in Madrid and London, Muslims have often been regarded as a security threat. They are seen as not just resistant to integration, but determined to impose their values on the Christian or post-Christian societies of the West. For governments anxious to maintain social harmony at home and good relations with Muslim governments abroad, this poses a set of difficult dilemmas. And for many of the estimated 15 million Muslims in Western Europe, the Swiss vote will be seen as one more sign that - whatever governments may say - they are simply not welcome. well at least theres still one functioning democracy left in europe i guess...............

And you would seriously choose that over getting back into the top flight? I don't see why its a case of choosing one or the other. But yes without doubt I would take winning the FA Cup over promotion this season. I want to see us win a trophy Ha ha. Like we've really got any chance of winning the FA cup this year? I've got more chance of winning the lottery (and I don't do the lottery). Pointless competition for those not in the top league imo. this, but i reckon its a competition only the top 6/8 teams in the country could/will win and unfortunately we aint one of em'! :-(

Alcatrazz - No Parole From Rock and Roll (Album) you gotta love these early 80's album names!!

As much as i like a tag that my friend is rankzilla! I'm a fan of the Carrerra range, i give you..... The Carrerra is much nicer than the Tag KD was after imo. Tag is a bit chunky/ostentatious for my tastes.

maybe she does all the dirty stuff his missus wont? she looks like a proper dirty bitch to me!

not my cup of tea but good on yer lads! keep it up!!

this. its all down to what feels comfortable to you. best to go to a couple of shops and have a bit of a try and see what feels good in your hands.